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Talk Is Jericho... Or Is It Just a Conspiracy?


wordsfromlee

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This conversation says far, far more about how the extreme right and the Black Lives Matter were reported than it does about what either were doing. Protests are not automatically extreme acts - they are sometimes the consequences to extreme acts.

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1 hour ago, Carbomb said:

I'm sorry, man, but I just can't agree with that. The BLM protests were a reaction by black Americans to a very real, existential threat posed by the police and an establishment that continued to enable the police to violate civil rights and kill with impunity. Whether you believe that the violence (which actually wasn't all that large a part of the protests as a whole, and actually had the majority of peaceful protesters trying to shut it down) was a result of the protesters' direct action, or the result of agents provocateurs from hostile parties infiltrating and de-railing them, their grievances were legitimate, and directly attributable to actual, real-life events. There was no individual or group of people targeted with pre-meditationĀ for death or physical harm.

The attack on the Capitol was a gang of people descending on the US' seat of government with the intent of over-turning a democratic election, and they displayed this intent by assaulting people andĀ setting up a nooseĀ outside the building.Ā 

I accept the general point that extremes are wrong, but trust me - if the extreme left ever gained any kind of traction in the US, we'd sure as fuck know about it. BLM are not extreme or far left - it's not extreme or radical to react with protests against a government that's killing your people, and I'd argue that the level of violence displayed thus far is probably indicative of restraint. If black Americans ever decided they'd had absolutely enough, and chose to react with organised, widespread violence to getĀ revengeĀ and not equality, the US would be, difficult as it is to believe, in even more of a state than it is now.

EDIT: @Brudaker summed it up better.

Absolutely the grievances of the BLM are legitimate and some of the anti lockdown protestors (also over the summer) had some legitimate grievances but it didnt and still doesn't make violence acceptable. This isn't about one issue, it's about society's default position of thinking it's ok to resort to violence to get their own way instead of reasoned debate. Ever more systemic failure in establishments listening to all sides and then meeting in the middle to me, doesn't legitimise violence.Ā 

There are elements on both sides that are fanatical, that's my point. And until politicians and the media start actually challenging these elements and trying to report events with some degree of objectivity it's going to keep fueling the fire. Whilst social media platforms allow unfiltered, unsubstantiated information to flood their apps it will continue to encourage these elements. If things go unchallenged, without consequences, it emboldens the fringes.

I didn't once mention race or BLM as there were multiple protests in multiple countries, (for various reasons) and all resorted to violence to varying degrees. I didn't say protests were extreme, but protests resorting to violence are in my opinion. That's a failure of discourse, of all sides and if we continue to normalise it events like last week will continue and as I said earlier, we'll try and outdo the other side with more violence and at that point everything is gubbed.

My point is both right and left sides have a lot to answer for and until individuals on both sides try and return to somewhere near the middle (or denounce the extreme elements on both sides instead of lending them credence) there'll be trouble. And how events are reported is absolutely part of the problem. You can't watch any news these days without some bent on the narrative feeding a particular audience and it's just not healthy.Ā 

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6 minutes ago, Suplex Sinner said:

I didn't once mention race or BLM as there were multiple protests in multiple countries, (for various reasons) and all resorted to violence to varying degrees. I didn't say protests were extreme, but protests resorting to violence are in my opinion.Ā 

But the thing is the Capitol attack wasn't a protest. It was a terrorist attack and an attempt to overthrow a democratically elected Government. It didn't resort to violence, it was violent by design.

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32 minutes ago, Suplex Sinner said:

There are elements on both sides that are fanatical, that's my point.

If you're not referring to BLM here, who are you talking about? Extinction Rebellion? You're both-sidesing it without being clear who on the left is as at the level of Trump's terrorists.

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Sinner mate it's not like you've got any particularly bad points here, but one group of people are being pushed to violence by a country that's openly murdering them, historically fucked them at every turn and the other group are wound up racists who don't know what the fucks real any more. There's no discourse or debate, it's been had. What does a person who storms Capitol Hill with a working gallows outside holding zip ties and backed by actual fucking police, secutiy and other state goons want to debate? Who's talking people chanting for the death of the vice president of the party they voted for down from the fucking ledge?

Chris Jericho's a cunt and chickens are finally coming home to roost on a lot of arseholes like him who've been brushing all this wank off as a sincere chat between opposing minds when it's terrifiedpeople on both sides, one with a racist country on it's side. One who can get away with it and one who get their heads panned in at violin vigils for dead kids.

Edited by Cannibal Man
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6 hours ago, Chris B said:

If you're not referring to BLM here, who are you talking about? Extinction Rebellion? You're both-sidesing it without being clear who on the left is as at the level of Trump's terrorists.

I don't know if other posters bringing BLM/race into a general discussion about left and right wing lunatics is an attempt to steer things for a particular purpose or not but as I stated in an earlier post the left wing media for example is just as partisan, just as full of crap as FOX and the right wing media. If you want examples of problematic conduct on the left, there are several prominent congressmen and women who have regularly tweeted factually incorrect information, made false claims and in some cases supported/condoned some of the more ridiculous suggestions proffered by the protestors you mentioned. Very dangerous, just as a lot of Trump's tweets/statements are and have been very dangerous.

I still maintain in response to someone else's comment that there's no point debating then I wholeheartedly disagree as that supports my original point that we're just at the beginning of the problem. These folk on either side have been left in their echo chambers winding themselves up without challenge, without engagement, without consequence. I'd have thought after the disgraceful scenes last week there would be more of a need to engage, debate and educate people, try and bring folks together. Is it easy? No. Is it going to produce the results we'd all want? No. But we can't just continue down this extremely partisan road where facts are ignored and media outlets and podcasts are broadcasting nonsense and winding nutters up and expect anything other than a complete breakdown of political and societal structures.Ā 

Anyway my point was general - there were left wing protests in France onĀ pensions/benefits that descended into violence when a minority decided they weren't going to bother listening to the police or adhering to law and order and started pushing them/throwing things at them which invited the inevitably heavy handed response. I personally think that violence for the sake of it or because people want their own way is wrong, regardless of motive. If you disagree, fair enough. Saying that there are no extremes on the left or implying that they're less offensive or dangerous than the right contributes to poor behaviour, misinformation and everything else being normalised. And again, I worry that we're just at the beginning of much bigger problems. And yes I sound naive or too idealistic but giving in and accepting everything is f*ck*d just allows extremes to fill the void and gain more prominence in my opinion.

Edited by Suplex Sinner
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14 minutes ago, Suplex Sinner said:

I don't know if other posters bringing BLM/race into a general discussion about left and right wing lunatics is an attempt to steer things for a particular purpose or not but as I stated in an earlier post the left wing media for example is just as partisan, just as full of crap as FOX and the right wing media. If you want examples of problematic conduct on the left, there are several prominent congressmen and women who have regularly tweeted factually incorrect information, made false claims and in some cases supported/condoned some of the more ridiculous suggestions proffered by the protestors you mentioned. Very dangerous, just as a lot of Trump's tweets/statements are and have been very dangerous.

I still maintain in response to someone else's comment that there's no point debating then I wholeheartedly disagree as that supports my original point that we're just at the beginning of the problem. These folk on either side have been left in their echo chambers winding themselves up without challenge, without engagement, without consequence. I'd have thought after the disgraceful scenes last week there would be more of a need to engage, debate and educate people, try and bring folks together. Is it easy? No. Is it going to produce the results we'd all want? No. But we can't just continue down this extremely partisan road where facts are ignored and media outlets and podcasts are broadcasting nonsense and winding nutters up and expect anything other than a complete breakdown of political and societal structures.Ā 

Anyway my point was general - there were left wing protests in France onĀ pensions/benefits that descended into violence when a minority decided they weren't going to bother listening to the police or adhering to law and order and started pushing them/throwing things at them which invited the inevitably heavy handed response. I personally think that violence for the sake of it or because people want their own way is wrong, regardless of motive. If you disagree, fair enough. Saying that there are no extremes on the left or implying that they're less offensive or dangerous than the right contributes to poor behaviour, misinformation and everything else being normalised. And again, I worry that we're just at the beginning of much bigger problems.

Ah, I see. Fair enough, my mistake, as BLM was the only major series of protests that came to mind at the time.Ā Didn't know about the ones in France.

I still maintain, however, that the extreme left is nowhere near the level of threat that the extreme right poses right now. When I switch on the news, it's almost always centred around xenophobia or pushing back against hard-won civil rights. I'm not seeing or hearing anything about proletarian revolution or redistribution of wealth. And I would also argue that protesting about pensions and benefits is neither left nor right - anyone of any political stripe isĀ going to be pissed off when their pensions are cut.

The reason why I argue against the "both sides" position is that, if we were to listen to the general media narrative, I as a socialist would be labelled "extremeĀ left", and I object to that in the strongest possible terms. We haven't had a say in the running of the UK for the past forty fucking years, so people can get it right up them ifĀ I or any other socialists are expected to take any blame for the shit-show this country's become because of the neoliberal mismanagement of the global economy.

Edited by Carbomb
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10 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

The reason why I argue against the "both sides" position is that, if we were to listen to the general media narrative, I as a socialist would be labelled "extremeĀ left", and I object to that in the strongest possible terms. We haven't had a say in the running of the UK for the past forty fucking years, so people can get it right up them ifĀ I or any other socialists are expected to take any blame for the shit-show this country's become because of the neoliberal mismanagement of the global economy.

I can totally understand that and speaks to the issue of labels, which in themselves aren't particularity helpful. I mean that there are people as extreme in their denial of facts, predisposition to violence and who think it's acceptable to shout louder rather than engage in a reasonable debate on the left as there are on the right...not that what is necessarily given the label "extreme left" i.e. yourself as a socialist are dangerous... hopefully that makes sense?

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51 minutes ago, Suplex Sinner said:

I don't know if other posters bringing BLM/race into a general discussion about left and right wing lunatics is an attempt to steer things for a particular purpose or not but as I stated in an earlier post the left wing media for example is just as partisan, just as full of crap as FOX and the right wing media. If you want examples of problematic conduct on the left, there are several prominent congressmen and women who have regularly tweeted factually incorrect information, made false claims and in some cases supported/condoned some of the more ridiculous suggestions proffered by the protestors you mentioned. Very dangerous, just as a lot of Trump's tweets/statements are and have been very dangerous.

I still maintain in response to someone else's comment that there's no point debating then I wholeheartedly disagree as that supports my original point that we're just at the beginning of the problem. These folk on either side have been left in their echo chambers winding themselves up without challenge, without engagement, without consequence. I'd have thought after the disgraceful scenes last week there would be more of a need to engage, debate and educate people, try and bring folks together. Is it easy? No. Is it going to produce the results we'd all want? No. But we can't just continue down this extremely partisan road where facts are ignored and media outlets and podcasts are broadcasting nonsense and winding nutters up and expect anything other than a complete breakdown of political and societal structures.Ā 

Anyway my point was general - there were left wing protests in France onĀ pensions/benefits that descended into violence when a minority decided they weren't going to bother listening to the police or adhering to law and order and started pushing them/throwing things at them which invited the inevitably heavy handed response. I personally think that violence for the sake of it or because people want their own way is wrong, regardless of motive. If you disagree, fair enough. Saying that there are no extremes on the left or implying that they're less offensive or dangerous than the right contributes to poor behaviour, misinformation and everything else being normalised. And again, I worry that we're just at the beginning of much bigger problems. And yes I sound naive or too idealistic but giving in and accepting everything is f*ck*d just allows extremes to fill the void and gain more prominence in my opinion.

When you bring up left-wing protests during last summer, it's hardly a stretch to have assumed you were talking about the BLM protests. If you weren't, fair enough.

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Thing is aswell though, literally everyone on the right is a cunt and stinks of shit and cuts about with their wife or husband in matching coats on Sundays in small villages buying carveries and taking it in turns to go for a piss in a car park toilet in case someone nicks the Vauxhall

Edited by Cannibal Man
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3 minutes ago, Chris B said:

When you bring up left-wing protests during last summer, it's hardly a stretch to have assumed you were talking about the BLM protests. If you weren't, fair enough.

I genuinely wasn't, although there are elements under that banner that in my opinion I'd consider dangerous, but a wider left leaning series of "left" protests last year in the US, France, Germany, Italy, Poland, Russia on a whole range of subjects (some 100% fair enough and reasonable) eventually descended into violence because the fringe elements weren't just happy with protesting, they wanted and instigated violence. People like that exist on both sides and rarely if ever listen to reason and are just as problematic as folk on the right, whatever the issue.Ā 

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Beat me to it.

I suppose there's the Morning Star, of which I think I'm one of only about 4 people thatĀ still buy and read it. The most left wing media in the mainstream is the Daily MirrorĀ for christ's sakes, and they're hardly championing Frederick Engels.

Edited by PowerButchi
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If we're going down the BLM vs. MAGA route, the difference is pretty obvious. The worst of BLM is rioting. The worst of MAGA is actual domestic terrorism. The worst of the MAGA lot had a planĀ to kill and take hostages with view to overruling the democratic process through violence and intimidation. There's the difference.

Edited by AVM
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25 minutes ago, PowerButchi said:

Beat me to it.

I suppose there's the Morning Star, of which I think I'm one of only about 4 people thatĀ still buy and read it. The most left wing media in the mainstream is the Daily MirrorĀ for christ's sakes, and they're hardly championing Frederick Engels.

There is the Guardian too, but is a very 'metropolitain left' shall we say, and leavesĀ itself openĀ to criticism far too often.

Edited by garynysmon
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