Paid Members BomberPat Posted January 12, 2021 Paid Members Share Posted January 12, 2021 Yep, and that's precisely my point. The UK has the most right wing media in Europe, and the US is even worse. The whole discussion is already off to a false start if you begin with the assumption that there are left and right wing voices of equal weight, and there simply isn't. As I said earlier, there is absolutely no mainstream "far left" presence in English speaking media or politics, whereas we've seen a slow creep further right across the board for decades. Arguing equivalence is often what gets us into this mess in the first place, because if you accept that a middling centre-left politician like AOC, or even a centre-right politician like Joe Biden is somehow "far left" then all you're actually achieving is dragging the nominal "centre" further to the right. Which is something we've seen, repeatedly, in recent years. It's the whole problem with the idea of "debating" these Flat Earth lunatics too. The very structure of a debate legitimises their position as one side of an argument, and positioning it as "the other side" suggests that it has equal merit, or close to it. When the reality is that there is no argument. It's like the BBC idea of balance being to get a climate change denier on whenever they talk about climate change - but someone representing an unscientific, dangerous fringe belief doesn't carry the same weight as the amassed knowledge of 98% of the scientific community, so by giving them equal time and equal billing all you achieve is to elevate the illegitimate viewpoint while devaluing the legitimate one. Deborah Lipstadt's work on Holocaust denial is crucial to understanding this sort of thing, in my opinion, as she wrote extensively on why she refused to debate their ideas. To continue to use denialism as an example - if you presented it as a "debate", then one side of the argument is "the Holocaust happened, and millions of people died", and the other side of the argument is "the Holocaust was a hoax perpetrated by the Jews, and either no one died or the number of deaths was an acceptable cost of war". What's your middle ground, where's the compromise agreement? If you agree to meet in the middle, do you decide "okay, we'll settle that maybe three million people died" or "we'll agree that some Jews perpetrated a hoax and some didn't?". Similarly, I recently had a discussion with a friend about 9/11 conspiracies. He said, "I would be prepared to accept that the US government had prior knowledge of the attack and didn't act on it". And that sounds like settling somewhere in the middle, to basically say, "okay, I don't believe your full-blown conspiracy, but I'm willing to meet you halfway and allow you this". But that "halfway point" is itself an unfounded conspiracy, so you're not dragging the conspiracy theorist closer to the truth, you're if anything further legitimising their position by conceding ideological ground that needn't be conceded. And what of Flat Earth? Where's the debate? Thousands of years of human experience, of scientific expertise, of observable phenomena, up against delusional claptrap. It's not a debate, because there's no argument to be had. It's literally arguing truth vs. fiction. Again, where's the compromise? That maybe the Earth is a little bit flat? That one of David Icke's reptilian alien species exists, but the other one doesn't? That if you say the sky is red and I say it's blue, we agree to settle that it's purple? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members garynysmon Posted January 12, 2021 Paid Members Share Posted January 12, 2021 (edited) 18 minutes ago, BomberPat said: Arguing equivalence is often what gets us into this mess in the first place, because if you accept that a middling centre-left politician like AOC, or even a centre-right politician like Joe Biden is somehow "far left" then all you're actually achieving is dragging the nominal "centre" further to the right. Which is something we've seen, repeatedly, in recent years. Indeed. I'm not even sure that those on the right, or certainly the poorly educated MAGA types, have any concept of what socialism or even a social democratic country is. They will always point to Cuba as the boogeyman, but the Scandinavian model represents a strong welfare state, high levels of unionism and a well backed single-payer health system. But if you asked most Americans about Norway, for example, they wouldn't classify it as socialist in any way, shape or form. Its a massive success on behalf of the private lobbyists that the debate over health in the states is in the sorry shape it is in, its shocking really. I've seen that cunt Daniel Hannan pop up from time to time on Fox etc talking down the NHS, and they love magnifying anything that presents the publicly funded Canadian public health service in a poor light. The fact that even Obamacare and even basic gun laws are seen as a massive controversial subjects speaks volumes about, how you say, the starting point lurches so far to the right. American exceptionalism is a major problem though. Many come out with 'the greatest country on earth' as a matter of routine, and that's across the political spectrum. Based on fucking what exactly? Edited January 12, 2021 by garynysmon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members tiger_rick Posted January 12, 2021 Paid Members Share Posted January 12, 2021 The BBC are left wing, it said so on Twitter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Duke Posted January 12, 2021 Paid Members Share Posted January 12, 2021 Chris Jericho would be furious that this topic stopped being about him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted January 12, 2021 Paid Members Share Posted January 12, 2021 he looks like he's been having more than enough Topics as it is, tbf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVM Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 I think when people on the right say 'left-wing media' they actually mean not rabidly right-wing. Our left-wing tabloids along with most of our broadcast media is liberal more than anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBacon Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 4 hours ago, tiger_rick said: The BBC are left wing, it said so on Twitter. Cant wait for The Communism Badge on Hey Duggee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honor87 Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 16 hours ago, Suplex Sinner said: I still maintain in response to someone else's comment that there's no point debating then I wholeheartedly disagree as that supports my original point that we're just at the beginning of the problem. I couldn’t agree more with you that I feel this is absolute key to society making any progress. If this weren’t true then how could the likes of Daryl Davis convert some 100’s of klan members by mere engagement with them, how could Megan phelps formerly of Westboro Baptist Church turn her life around after living and believing the views of that hateful place? Hillary Clinton who I sure many would have rather had as president that Trump had Robert Byrd, (a founding member of a Klan Chapter) in her own words as a friend and a mentor. Obama even gave a eulogy at his funeral. How was it he could be saved and turn his life around if not for engagement, about why his viewpoints at that point were appalling. Albeit that these are obvious cherry picked examples of successful change & many discussions may fall on deaf ears, but without engaging with people and actually discussing their ideas and challenging them, how can society progres? For those that just seem to repeat the ‘never engage’ mantra, what/how do actually and realistically propose dealing with those sorts of individuals?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 49 minutes ago, AVM said: I think when people on the right say 'left-wing media' they actually mean not rabidly right-wing. Our left-wing tabloids along with most of our broadcast media is liberal more than anything. It’s the classic right winger thing of anyone slightly to the left of them is a leftie. Even David fucking Cameron was called a leftie. David fucking Cameron. It happens on the left as well but to a much lesser extent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brudaker Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 (edited) 39 minutes ago, honor87 said: I couldn’t agree more with you that I feel this is absolute key to society making any progress. If this weren’t true then how could the likes of Daryl Davis convert some 100’s of klan members by mere engagement with them, how could Megan phelps formerly of Westboro Baptist Church turn her life around after living and believing the views of that hateful place? Hillary Clinton who I sure many would have rather had as president that Trump had Robert Byrd, (a founding member of a Klan Chapter) in her own words as a friend and a mentor. Obama even gave a eulogy at his funeral. How was it he could be saved and turn his life around if not for engagement, about why his viewpoints at that point were appalling. Albeit that these are obvious cherry picked examples of successful change & many discussions may fall on deaf ears, but without engaging with people and actually discussing their ideas and challenging them, how can society progres? For those that just seem to repeat the ‘never engage’ mantra, what/how do actually and realistically propose dealing with those sorts of individuals?? I haven't seen anyone here suggesting you shouldn't speak to folk with opposing views or not try to convince those with dangerous ones that they are wrong. Daryl Davis didn't get people to leave the clan by suggesting a white ethno state might have some benefits or treating their racism as acceptable. There is a difference between treating people respectfully while debating and indulging their wild ideologies or conspiracies. 'Robert Byrd used to be in the KKK' being an argument here is just ridiculous! This idea that folk are entitled to behave however they see fit in the quest for balance is dangerous and leads to recruitment for violent organisations. Robert Byrd learned, that no matter how well argued or intentioned, the KKK is a fucking hate group! No two sides to every story bullshit. That's how he gained respect and forgiveness. Not by treating hate as a worthwhile argument! "I know now I was wrong. Intolerance had no place in America. I apologized for a thousand times ... and I don't mind apologizing over and over again. I can't erase what happened." - Robert Byrd Edited January 12, 2021 by Brudaker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honor87 Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 13 minutes ago, Brudaker said: I haven't seen anyone here suggesting you shouldn't speak to folk with opposing views or not try to convince those with dangerous ones that they are wrong. Daryl Davis didn't get people to leave the clan by suggesting a white ethno state might have some benefits or treating their racism as acceptable. There is a difference between treating people respectfully while debating and indulging their wild ideologies or conspiracies. 'Robert Byrd used to be in the KKK' being an argument here is just ridiculous! This idea that folk are entitled to behave however they see fit in the quest for balance is dangerous and leads to recruitment for violent organisations. Robert Byrd learned, that no matter how well argued or intentioned, the KKK is a fucking hate group! No two sides to every story bullshit. That's how he gained respect and forgiveness. Not by treating hate as a worthwhile argument! "I know now I was wrong. Intolerance had no place in America. I apologized for a thousand times ... and I don't mind apologizing over and over again. I can't erase what happened." - Robert Byrd I think you have misinterpreted my point. I didn’t say you justify their values, you engage with them to challenge them, hence how the likes of Daryl Davis helped people change their views. It was through engagement, as per examples such as I have stated above, that these people achieved positive change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brudaker Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 You are conflating reasonable debate on issues with de-radicalization. The conversation here has changed from 'should Jericho host a show debating ideas that have no merit and what danger is there in giving credence to dangerous ideas?' to 'well you have to engage in debate'. Daryl Davis didn't debate KKK members, he patiently and compassionately explained why they were wrong and forced them to confront that with evidence. The earth isn't flat! Racism is bad! Trump lost! Gravity exists! The sky is blue! None of these statements need a Jericho podcast to explore the merits of the argument because there is no argument. Anyone who disagrees shouldn't be 'debated' they should be told they're wrong. Simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 36 minutes ago, Brudaker said: The earth isn't flat! Racism is bad! Trump lost! Gravity exists! The sky is blue! None of these statements need a Jericho podcast to explore the merits of the argument because there is no argument. Well, they might benefit from Joe Rogan saying "Wow" after each one, before telling us that he smokes weed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wordsfromlee Posted January 12, 2021 Author Share Posted January 12, 2021 As AOC said earlier on Twitter, "lies are not 'difference of opinion'." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members mim731 Posted January 12, 2021 Paid Members Share Posted January 12, 2021 2 hours ago, SuperBacon said: Cant wait for The Communism Badge on Hey Duggee. In fairness, Duggee grows his own veg, and advocates for sharing everything equally, so he's well on his way to being the Jeremy Corbyn of the pre school animation world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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