Michael_3165 Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 4 hours ago, MPDTT said: But in the workplace, you don't need to prove anything 'beyond reasonable doubt', you need 'reasonable belief', so the burden of proof is lower. Fuck... Reasonable belief!? Seriously? Many people believe all sorts of stuff... Not sure how relevant feelings are in this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Tommy! Posted June 21, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted June 21, 2020 4 hours ago, Devon Malcolm said: Why don't you both go I'd second that..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyF5 Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 19 minutes ago, Michael_3165 said: Fuck... Reasonable belief!? Seriously? Many people believe all sorts of stuff... Not sure how relevant feelings are in this. The criminal standard of proof is 'beyond reasonable doubt' and the civil standard of proof is usually 'on the balance of probabilities' i.e. more likely than not. I think @MPDTT might be talking about the law of unfair dismissal where to fairly dismiss the employer (usually) has to form a reasonable belief in guilt based on a reasonable investigation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB6937 Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 24 minutes ago, sj5522 said: as far as whether Ospreay will be alright coming out of this, him being primarily in New Japan rather than AEW or WWE might help him. I doubt much of this is reaching the Japanese fans outside of his own sloppy apology post, and I doubt New Japan will react when they did nothing about Elgin a couple of years ago, but Ospreay may at least find his adulation in the US and UK has dried up somewhat. Hes probably lucky we're in the state we're in worldwide at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPDTT Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 4 minutes ago, JohnnyF5 said: The criminal standard of proof is 'beyond reasonable doubt' and the civil standard of proof is usually 'on the balance of probabilities' i.e. more likely than not. I think @MPDTT might be talking about the law of unfair dismissal where to fairly dismiss the employer (usually) has to form a reasonable belief in guilt based on a reasonable investigation. Correct. In an employment disciplinary, reasonable belief will suffice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted June 21, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted June 21, 2020 1 minute ago, MPDTT said: Correct. In an employment disciplinary, reasonable belief will suffice. Stop derailing this thread with this crap and go and take it there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyF5 Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, MPDTT said: Correct. In an employment disciplinary, reasonable belief will suffice. Sometimes might not even need reasonable belief if for example an employer reasonably suspects one or more employees to be guilty of misconduct but cannot identify which. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Chest Rockwell Posted June 21, 2020 Moderators Share Posted June 21, 2020 As above, in Devon's post. This conversation is totally off topic. Take it elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrodyGraham Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Progress have just announced that 2 of their 3 main guys (Matt Richards and Glen Robinson/Joseph) are stepping away from the company to be replaced by a more diverse leadership team including Vicky Haskins and Michael Oku (The OJMO). Matt Richards had already announced he was out, first I've heard about Joseph going. That leaves Jon Briley from the original 3 directors and he's the one who's been responsible for the absolute shit show of their response to all of this. Be interesting to see if they can repair the damage they've done to themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Four Horsemen Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 As someone pointed out to me today discussing the whole situation, sadly the low lives who have done these things will have friends (male and female) who they probably shared what they were doing neglecting to give every detail but telling enough to discuss. Those people are going to have to look at themselves in the mirror and think that they knew what was happening but chose to do nothing about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBacon Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 25 minutes ago, The Four Horsemen said: As someone pointed out to me today discussing the whole situation, sadly the low lives who have done these things will have friends (male and female) who they probably shared what they were doing neglecting to give every detail but telling enough to discuss. Those people are going to have to look at themselves in the mirror and think that they knew what was happening but chose to do nothing about it. I don't think it's quite as clear cut or black and white as that. Everyone is different and processes things in their own way, so I don't think it's necessarily fair to guilt people like that. Should you speak up? If you can, yes. Is this always possible? No. In a lot of cases it's not. There's lots of reasons abused people hold on to information/instances for a long time.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Four Horsemen Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Fair and valid point.. No argument on that, there is a lot of grey area there. They may not have spoken because they feared what would happen to them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBacon Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 11 minutes ago, The Four Horsemen said: Fair and valid point.. No argument on that, there is a lot of grey area there. They may not have spoken because they feared what would happen to them? Perthaps. Or perhaps they were in denial, were being manipulated themselves. Abusers have a great way of making everyone around them think their behaviour is completely normal and fine, so those friends are/were victims of theirs as well, albeit to a much lesser extent. Put it this way, without getting into personal specifics, I was once friends with someone who was an abuser. I now know he was an abuser, but I didn't at the time. I didn't speak up about it at the time as he was very, very fucking clever about how he concocted this scenario where he made everyone feel that what he was doing wasn't wrong. Do I feel guilty about not speaking up at the time? Yes I do, but I don't beat myself up about it as much as I used to, as I now know that he was manipulating all of us. It's what they do best. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted June 21, 2020 Author Share Posted June 21, 2020 Also remember that anyone who was abused is in charge. It’s their ordeal, it’s their story, it’s their decision if they want to talk or not and shouldn’t be persuaded by others to do what they don’t want to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBacon Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Good point, which is why there is a great advantage to anonymity on the internet/social media. A friend of mine in a pique of rage said the other day that everyone should have to sign up to Twitter with a passport photo, ffs. Obviously there is horrendous abuse and trolling on social media sites, which should be handled better, but anonymity is a great refuge for say marginalised groups or in this case abuse victims. It's been incredibly eye opening as to the speed at which these stories have come through, some anonymously, like an avalanche, which wouldn't necessarily have happened if that safety net of sorts didn't exist. Lost my point a bit somewhere, sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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