Comedy and offense

[Mr_Danger]

It’s true to some degree. You hear people talk far more openly making disparaging remarks against the traveller community in general. What Carr is finding out now is that it only takes a few people in the right place to look in to that mirror and say “that’s not me that’s you, ya cunt” and it soon snowballs from there.

As usual my stance with this sort of thing is let them say what they want and let people react however they want. Live by sword and all that. I watched a bit of that special  at the time but I fell a sleep before that joke. I don’t think I’d have bat an eyelid at it though, in the context of all the other jokes he tells it’s just another sick joke.

It’s not my thing and audience banter aside I don’t think his material is very good, although he’s one of the better provocative comedians in the sense that he manages to say the most terrible things whilst maintaining an air of it not being his actual persona and beliefs like a Jim Davidson or someone.

Edited February 6, 2022 by Mr_Danger

[Keith Houchen]

Bae Vicky C has had a mare with that, but people saying she’s as bad as her brother can fuck off. Snidey Dave Schneider was called out on his historical GRT tweets. To his credit, he made a proper apology. What annoys some people isn’t so much the joke, but the lack of consistency from supposed anti racism campaigners in the Entertainment and broadcasting world. Carr is one of their own so they defend him because he didn’t mean it, despite a litany of GRT jokes in the past. 
 

@Loki is right in that had you substituted gypsies in the joke with any other group murdered by nazis, such as the disabled, gays, Slavs etc, it would’ve been cut or not got the laughs.  But anti GRT opinions aren’t treated the same because they’re more accepted in mainstream society. 
 

For what it’s worth, I’m of the opinion that regardless of how old you are, you can grow as a person. What’s the point of activism if you don’t?

[SuperBacon]

25 minutes ago, Mr_Danger said:

As usual my stance with this sort of thing is let them say what they want and let people react however they want.

I completely agree (not when it goes into hate speech though IMO)

My big bugbear is all these dickheads claiming that if you don't like something, its 'cancel culture' or being 'woke'. 

Someone at lunch at work the other day was showing someone a clip of Jim Jeffries the other day (the dread when someone says "Oh, you've GOT to see this YouTube clip" eh?) and because I was sat there silently eating my noodles and reading got a "Easily offended eh Bacon? Too edgy for you?"

No, Jim Jeffries is just absolutely fucking dreadful. Free speech means he can say what he wants, and I can say he's fucking shit without reproach too. 

That Jimmy Carr joke isn't funny (as well as being unnecessary) Just because I dont like it doesn't mean I'm cancelling him. Just be funnier and stretch to more than 3 or 4 of the same subjects every routine. (I've seen the special for what it's worth and did titter at some of the gags)

Also there is no way he did that joke because he is "holding a mirror up to society" and tutting at OUR prejudices for Romany/Gypsy people. Sorry I don't buy that at all.

I also believe that he doesn't hate travellers, so it's more nuanced than most people make out, as is often the case.

 

[Keith Houchen]

11 minutes ago, SuperBacon said:

My big bugbear is all these dickheads claiming that if you don't like something, its 'cancel culture' or being 'woke'. 

Of course, those terms only apply to things they like. I don’t recall cancel culture being mentioned when Jo Brand upset his fans with her Farage joke, were people being too woke when criticising Stormzy and his union flag stab vest? I don’t think people saying jokes about Prince Philip dying were sick got called snowflakes. 

[King Coconut]

2 hours ago, Loki said:

racism against Romany is the last mainstream acceptable racism in the UK

Apart from the Jocks, Sheep Shaggers, Spud Munchers, French and German. 

[Chest Rockwell]

1 hour ago, SuperBacon said:

Free speech means he can say what he wants, and I can say he's fucking shit without reproach too. 

A bit off Topic but no, that's not what free speech means.

[Keith Houchen]

24 minutes ago, King Coconut said:

Spud Munchers

That’s a very PC way of saying potato wogs 

[SuperBacon]

50 minutes ago, Chest Rockwell said:

A bit off Topic but no, that's not what free speech means.

He's able to say anything he wishes to express without fear of retaliation, and so am I? Again, as long as it doesn't venture into hateful speech.

No?

Edit: wrote this in a haste in between trying to deal with a 12yo having a meltdown.

Of course there are limitations (libel, bigotry/hate, copyright etc) and I didn't mean without reproach, not sure why I wrote that. But apart from that, what else am I missing?

Edited February 6, 2022 by SuperBacon

[Carbomb]

Yeh, I thought that was a mis-type. Freedom of speech means you can say what you want without being hurt, killed, imprisoned, etc. 

Thing is, though, there are a lot of "Libertarians" who don't seem to understand that, complaining about freedom of speech when someone who disagrees with them, has a go, insults them, or decides they don't want to hang out with them or listen to them. 

It's almost as if what they really want is freedom of speech only for themselves. 

Edited February 6, 2022 by Carbomb

[Tamura]

Quote

 

If you argue that you should be allowed the freedom of speech to promote policies that deny that very same right to people purely on the basis of skin colour or nationality, then actually no, we don't believe that you have a legitimate complaint when someone hits you over the head with your megaphone.

 

From the book "No Retreat: The Secret War Between Britain's Anti-Fascists and the Far Right".

[Chest Rockwell]

7 hours ago, SuperBacon said:

 

Of course there are limitations (libel, bigotry/hate, copyright etc) and I didn't mean without reproach, not sure why I wrote that. But apart from that, what else am I missing?

Yeah it was the 'without reproach' bit I had a problem with so, cheerfully withdrawn.

[BomberPat]

On 2/4/2022 at 6:28 PM, Tommy! said:

As an addition I watched the bit earlier as someone posted it on twitter, and it's amazing to see he hasn't seemingly evolved or developed in any way since his first dvd in what 2003.

That's actually by design here. A lot of the Netflix specials he's done is purposefully repeating old material from his DVDs, so that he and Netflix can get the rights to those jokes without having to fork out to buy the actual performances from whoever released the original DVDs. I imagine it's something we'll see other stand-ups doing plenty of.

As for the joke - it has the real Pavlovian structure of a joke, the whole subversion of expectation thing that's Carr's stock in trade. But it falls apart the same way that every offensive joke tends to - imagine sitting down with Jimmy Carr, him telling that joke, and you not laughing. You ask him, "I don't get it". You ask him to explain why it's funny. What explanation can he give that doesn't involve anti-Roma prejudice, or justifying using other people's anti-Roma prejudice in the name of a punchline?

I don't think Jimmy Carr is personally racist against Gypsies. I think he's a professional comedian who made a calculated decision that they would be the social group least empowered in either the media or political discourse to personally speak up against him, least likely to be represented in his audience, and least likely to spark outrage on the behalf of others. It was a misstep, and one that his mates are doing an absolutely shocking job of defending. As my brother described it with Schneider apologising, and Baddiel never quite apologising but saying enough words to make you think he must have done, while plugging his shit book, it's just comedians in their 50s and 60s apologising for the wayward youth of their late 40s. 

Speaking of Baddiel, if he were just a comedian who had written a well-intentioned but poorly argued book about antisemitism, I'd have no problem with that whatsoever. What shocks me is the amount of public figures coming out in praise of it in terms that make it seem like they'd actually never even considered the existence of antisemitism, or institutional prejudice of any kind, before David Baddiel off of the telly helpfully wrote a book about it. 

[Hannibal Scorch]

13 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

Speaking of Baddiel, if he were just a comedian who had written a well-intentioned but poorly argued book about antisemitism, I'd have no problem with that whatsoever. What shocks me is the amount of public figures coming out in praise of it in terms that make it seem like they'd actually never even considered the existence of antisemitism, or institutional prejudice of any kind, before David Baddiel off of the telly helpfully wrote a book about it. 

It’s obviously a celebrity thing, what with Cody Rhodes recently solving Racism as well.

[Keith Houchen]

1 hour ago, BomberPat said:

Speaking of Baddiel, if he were just a comedian

That’s an interesting suggestion, I wonder what he’d be like as a comedian. 

[Carbomb]

2 hours ago, BomberPat said:

Speaking of Baddiel, if he were just a comedian who had written a well-intentioned but poorly argued book about antisemitism, I'd have no problem with that whatsoever. What shocks me is the amount of public figures coming out in praise of it in terms that make it seem like they'd actually never even considered the existence of antisemitism, or institutional prejudice of any kind, before David Baddiel off of the telly helpfully wrote a book about it. 

Truth be told, I'm not entirely surprised about that. Antisemitism as an actual thing to be understood (as opposed to a rallying banner the Right have jumped on to weaponise against the Left) seems to be a fairly detached and distant thing from the UK population at large; I would venture to guess that this is primarily down to the simple likelihood that the vast majority of average Britons don't actually know or have even met any Jews or a Jewish community. Bear in mind the total Jewish population of the UK is about 500,000 at most, and their communities are concentrated in England's biggest cities in the south-east, north-west, and Yorkshire, and the biggest cities of Scotland, Wales, and NI.

As a result, it's something that people know about and horrified from a distance by, because they've been taught about it at school, and it's been discussed to great degree in the media, but, unless you have a particular interest in that section of politics/history/culture, and are prepared to do more in-depth reading, a lot of what Baddiel wrote, as a "mainstream" book on antisemitism, was probably a lot of the average Briton's first detailed explanation on it.

Has Baddiel ever actually apologised for the blacking up? I was under the impression he'd doubled down.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Carbomb