Does a wrestler’s personal views affect how you view them as a performer?

[RedRooster]

I’d been thinking about creating this thread on the back of this tweet from CM Punk...how much does a wrestler’s personal views affect how you view them as a performer?

It’s something I’ve been thinking about a lot recently, after reading suggestions that Chris Jericho and several other wrestlers I enjoy watching may be pro-Trump, which is a stance that is increasingly indefensible with each passing day.

Given that the man has created concentration camps, argued against children in these camps receiving basic toiletries , has spread racial hatred and possibly even committed rape (or at the very least, by his own ‘pussy-grabbing’ admission, sexual assault) backing Trump doesn’t exactly reflect well on a person.

For that reason, having not been aware of his potential political views until this week, I found it really difficult to enjoy Jericho on AEW Dynamite last night.

Where do you stand on this? Not specifically on Jericho, but on this question in general. Does a wrestler’s personal views affect how you view them?

[tiger_rick]

Within reason, I don't mind. Jericho is a good example because his political leanings won't affect me when I watch him wrestle. They'd stop me listening to his podcast or buying his records (if I liked his music) but I have a different filter for wrestling because I have to. Because as I've said several times, I love wrestling but I hate that I love it.

It'd be hard for me to truthfully talk about a Hogan or a Snuka because I've never liked them anyway. So that would be disingenuous.

Benoit is the really big one. I cannot watch him without thinking about what he did and it has ruined EVERY single moment with him in. Because it cannot be ignored and I can't understand how anyone can think differently. Just do not get that.

[Lenin]

I think it's important to be aware of and understand (as far as is possible) the viewpoints of people that you look up to be it in wrestling, music or acting. If you are aware of their positions then you are less likely to be caught out or mugged off, particularly in this day and age of social media and instant communications.

I don't agree with a lot of them but I can mostly separate the person from the character because I know I am not personally endorsing the individual. It can be a bit murky but my approach is down, in large part to being around and working as and with people in embassies, government departments etc. I have learned to separate myself from the situation or job and hand (yes that has its own moral difficulties) to get it done.

I would never boycott Jericho for his Trump affiliations because I access his character and material for recreational, not political purposes. But being aware of them I am less likely to defend him or get caught out condoning behaviour or opinions that are indefensible because I know. The carry on in the Twitter thread around Hogan and his racism shows the limits though and is an example of someone trying to defend the indefensible. I would consider not accessing his material on the basis that he is a well documented racist arsehole, which transcends the character and material available. But if I did, I wouldn't rush to talk about it knowing full well the possible connotations and arguments you'd get into.

It'll vary character by character, you pay for a service they provide, not their moral or political opinions. It is harder than ever though to walk the line.

[garynysmon]

Yes, but only to a degree. And I'm a hypocrite for it.

I say that as I can watch a Hulk Hogan match or promo with the wide eyes of a 10 year old me and pretty much forget that he's, as Alan Partridge said, "a bit racist". Same with most stars of the 80's and early 90's that I hold such fondness for, purely due to nostalgia.

On the other hand, for any wrestlers that came afterwards and don't mean anything to me, I'm much more critical.

Nothing annoys me more than when someone even tries to deflect any blame from Chris Benoit for killing his family. The fact that some sad, hardcore wrestling-obsessed bellends even consider him to be hall of fame worthy drives me insane. 

What he did was terrible, but I'd be lying if at least a tiny part of that stems from the fact that I never really enjoyed his work and saw him as a posterboy for a type of product that considered his like to be main event calibre, which just isn't for me. Its stuff which has (IMO) laid the groundwork for what I view as the massive deterioration of wrestling over the last 20 years. 

So consciously or not, I had a built-in bias against him even before his heinous and indefensible crimes.

Its the same with AJ Styles, who obviously has some weird right wing and religious views and is a bit of a flat earther isn't he?

But as I said, hypocritically, I'm sure some of my heroes from my youth have said and done worse things than AJ Styles which I'd rather just forget about and watch Summerslam 88 in peace.

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by garynysmon

[King Pitcos]

I left political tribalism behind in sixth form and I don’t like echo chambers, so it makes no odds to me which politician a wrestler votes for/supports. It does put me off watching a wrestler if it turns out they’ve done a rape or murder etc, but it’s rare that that stuff comes out in the middle of their career and I don’t often rewatch old matches anyway.

Similar to what tiger_rick said, if a wrestler has a podcast where they’re always banging on about stuff I’ve no interest in, I’ll probably not listen to it. But then I don’t listen to many podcasts anyway.

So ultimately - for the most part, it has no impact on my regular viewing or enjoyment.

Edited June 4, 2020 by King Pitcos

[Jazzy G]

It's the question of separating the art from the artist. I love Chris Benoit the wrestler, but Chris Benoit the person did some utterly horrible things. 

[andrew "the ref" coyne]

Jericho and AJ Styles I can get where it comes to supporting them. They may have views and opinions that we may disagree with, but ultimately they have a right to the opinion that the world if flat or that Trump is the man to lead America. 

But when it's a crime or viciously hurting others it's a whole other ballgame. Benoit is an easy example of this. 

One I'm curious on people's opinion is Steve Austin. We love him, but should we really be supporting a man who has assaulted two former partners of his?

[tiger_rick]

Yeah, Austin's interesting. His domestic abuses don't detract in any way from me enjoying his work as a wrestler. I'd be lying if I said I remembered half the time that he'd done it. I don't know if I ever would have an opinion on him as a person because I don't know him from Adam but I certainly don't think much of him for knocking women about. It's low.

[Devon Malcolm]

It's a tough but interesting topic, I think, and certainly not one where there's a black and white answer and is entirely down to the individual and subject.

I mean, we all watch films, TV, listen to music, read books. The chances are that every one of us, today, will consume media where somebody who has done or said something repellent or who has a world or social view that we may find completely contrary to our own.

By and large I've always been a 'judge the work' person but I've shifted on that with certain individuals. Woody Allen, for instance. I've really liked many of his films but watching a couple of them recently, it's clear that his own personal life and standpoint is referenced heavily and been influential on his work. I don't want to watch Annie Hall and be party to jokes about somebody sleeping with a 16 year old girl. I've chosen not to watch his films anymore.

Wrestling has many moving parts so it's similarly difficult to pin down. I get the WWE Network despite the various issues surrounding the company but I've found sitting in front of some old WCW in the evening has been helpful for my late night anxiety.

Like I say, it's a tough subject but always interesting to hear how different people approach it.

[Michael_3165]

I find that Punk used to make me dislike him even as a face. He comes off as a whiny bitch and never takes responsibility for his own shortcomings. That takes away from almost all of his matches no matter how hard I try to like them. 

Funnily I can watch Benoit and not have a problem in the slightest. Same with Austin and the wife beating saga. 

*walks away for a good think about my priorities!*

Edited June 4, 2020 by Michael_3165

[danlewis]

Honestly, it does bother me.

As I age, I’m way less into separating the art from the artist. Of course, as a wrestling fan there’s always going to be some of that but I do enjoy it less if someone is a dick.

Its not an echo chamber thing, it’s more that in my leisure time I don’t  want to have to be thinking about bad stuff.

 

[IANdrewDiceClay]

Wrestling is sort of the one area you can get away with still enjoying absolute scumbags, because you sort of leave your morals at the door when watching it. I think 90% of people I quite liked as a fan over the years turned out to be complete arseholes. I imagine it has a lot to do with the amount of emotional attachment you put into the characters. Hulk Hogan, Ultimate Warrior etc. were all heroes to us, but until about 1997, I thought Hulk Hogan walked around Venice Beach in his red spandex all day signing autographs for kids. Spending most of your life thinking these men were as real as a Mr Blobby was probably helps our demographic seperate the two, for better or worse.

Genunely, if I admitted this I'm sure I'd have been sent in for tests, but I thought wrestlers wore the clothes they wore on the cover of the Royal Rumble 91/92 boxes. Slightly different versions of their outfits. Like they went to Kwick Save with it on.

Edited June 4, 2020 by IANdrewDiceClay

[Astro Hollywood]

With Benoit, I don't see how you can separate the art from the artist, as it's so directly linked to his actions. At the time, everyone loved the spot in their Rumble match, where he dove through the ropes and Jericho cracked him on the top of the head with a chair, but how can anyone watch that now and not be thinking "well, there's another contusion on the brain. Few more years of those and he'll be killing his kid..."? With, say, musicians, at least you can tell yourself the scummy shit wasn't going on while they were recording the album that fucking bangs, but every time Benoit hits that diving headbutt; every time he takes a bump, you're seeing the direct path to what happened.

In general, it's gotten harder for me to separate things in recent years, but like with probably everyone, I'm hypocritical in what I choose to ignore, and there wouldn't be a lot of movies or music left if you were strict about it. That said, just knowing Taker is a Blue Lives Matter bell-end put me right off wanting to watch a documentary about him. But anyone pro-Trump is an instant no for me. No coming back from that.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Astro Hollywood

[Factotum]

With wrestling, I don't really care. Its such a batshit, mad industry that most of them involved have done things I disagree with or hold views I don't agree with. If they're a nice bloke then I'll like them more e.g. Daniel Bryan. 

People's political views can make me appreciate them. Batista being a flat out Trump hating lefty means he's alright with me and Kevin Nash shitting on right wingers also makes me appreciate him way more than I did. 

At the end of the day, the man who runs the biggest wrestling company is an utter moral black hole. It sets the tone

Edited June 4, 2020 by Factotum

[Merzbow]

There's really just no ethical way to consume wrestling, even the best intentioned company is likely to have a shitstain or two on their books. It's not like music where you can easily stop listening to or funding artists.

And this isn't saying just watch it all regardless, I pick and choose exactly what I watch by who's involved and WWE for starters hasn't had any money from me in at least half a decade now.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Merzbow