Covid-19 Megathread

[David]

20 hours ago, Keith Houchen said:

There’s a difference between a “Lifestyle choice” and not believing/trusting the medical professionals and experts. If you don’t trust them on the vaccine, why trust them with anything health related?  Personally, I understand peoples reservations concerning the long term effects, if any, of this vaccine, but that’s a failure of communication. If however you think it’s all Bill Gates and 5G cack, and how it’ll change your genetic make up, you should quite honestly jump at the chance at having your genetics modified. 

Let's be honest, the Bill Gates/conspiracy stuff is nonsense, and the people who actually buy into that kind of thing are what they always have been. A fringe minority. 

When you look at the statistics it would appear that vaccine hesitancy, especially when it comes to the Covid vaccine, is centred for the most part on non-white groups, people with dependent children from the ages of 0-4, adults educated to below degree level, renters rather than property owners, and lower income earners from the most deprived areas. 

For me, the most sensible approach to dealing with this situation is to find out exactly why people from these backgrounds aren't as quick to accept the vaccine as other more affluent, more white groups. The answer certainly isn't to start threatening minorities and working class people with expulsion from the health system.

By doing so we're simply doing the 'Tories jobs for them far better than they ever could themselves. Expel the poor, working class minority groups and provide unfettered access to healthcare for the more wealthy, predominantly older and white demographic.

20 hours ago, Tamura said:

In 2012 54% of doctors backed denial of treatment to smokers and the obese. In 2016 the obese were denied treatment, and there were also reports it may be extended to smokers. If it's down to resource management, I'm 100% of the opinion that people who, for no legitimate reason, refuse to be vaccinated should be very much at the back of the queue for for life-saving healthcare should they be hospitalised with COVID. There's been more than enough stories in the press about anti-vaxxers dying from COVID for them to get the message that everyone is potentially vulnerable.

And what is a "legitimate reason" in your eyes? And who would you have determine this definitive list that decides if someone is shunned and allowed to die, or given life-saving treatment? The government? You would trust them with that task? I'm sure they'd love to take you up on that considering the demographics I've mentioned above.

And please, enough with the "anti-vaxxer" shite. Leave that for The Sun and Sky News. What we're talking about here, for the most part, is vaccine hesitancy when it comes to one particular vaccine. We're not discussing some outback survivalist who's stockpiling weapons for the great race war and thinks every injection from the government is a tracking device.

These are, for the most part, reasonable people with legitimate concerns that deserve to be addressed properly rather than dealt with using threats of expulsion. 

[Tamura]

42 minutes ago, David said:

And what is a "legitimate reason" in your eyes? And who would you have determine this definitive list that decides if someone is shunned and allowed to die, or given life-saving treatment? The government? You would trust them with that task? I'm sure they'd love to take you up on that considering the demographics I've mentioned above.

Not in my eyes. The government's own website coveniently deals with medical exemptions from vaccinations, and politicans have pretty much zero say in who's exempt since it's dealt with by doctors, specialist clinicians or midwifes. You will note there appears to be no mention of religion on there, and correctly so in my opinion. I'm no expert on the many different types of believers in sky fairies, but there does not appear to be any major UK religion that prohibits vaccinations. What other exemptions do you think there should be? "I'm exempt because I have a healthy diet and an excellent immune system" idiots can fuck right off.

42 minutes ago, David said:

And please, enough with the "anti-vaxxer" shite. Leave that for The Sun and Sky News. What we're talking about here, for the most part, is vaccine hesitancy when it comes to one particular vaccine.

Do you mean Angie Gibbs, who died after not getting vaccinated after she became "hooked on conspiracy theories" (direct quote from her mum)? Perhaps you mean Heather Maddern and Sammie-Jo Forde, a mother and daughter who spread conspiracy theories about vaccinations online before dying days apart? Perhaps you mean Richard Rose, who famously said ""Let make this clear. I'm not buying a fucking mask. I've made it this far by not buying into that damn hype" before dying of COVID a little over two months later? I could keep going, but my point has been demonstrated quite enough. What do you think is causing this so-called "vaccine hesitancy"? It wouldn't happen to be baseless conspiracy theories spread by anti-vaccine activists online by any chance would it? While it's certainly true that the long-term effects of the various vaccines remain unknown, it's a straightforward fact that they have saved many lives.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Tamura

[ReturnOfTheMack]

7 minutes ago, Tamura said:

.What do you think is causing this so-called "vaccine hesitancy"?

While it's certainly true that the long-term effects of the various vaccines remain unknown.

That's the question and the (an) answer quoted for you. And I say that as someone working with covid testing as.well as vaccination. I fully understand the fears, even if I don't agree with them.

[Keith Houchen]

22 hours ago, Keith Houchen said:

Personally, I understand peoples reservations concerning the long term effects, if any, of this vaccine, but that’s a failure of communication.

@DavidNot sure if you were arguing against what I posted when you quoted it, but that bit is pretty much what you were saying. 
 

There’s also a hesitancy from minority groups to be vaccinated due to historical examples of medical apartheid, white people using black people as Guinea pigs for medical trials etc. All over colonial Africa this shit happened and the lack of trust still lives. 

[David]

1 hour ago, Tamura said:

Not in my eyes. The government's own website coveniently deals with medical exemptions from vaccinations, and politicans have pretty much zero say in who's exempt since it's dealt with by doctors, specialist clinicians or midwifes. You will note there appears to be no mention of religion on there, and correctly so in my opinion. I'm no expert on the many different types of believers in sky fairies, but there does not appear to be any major UK religion that prohibits vaccinations. What other exemptions do you think there should be? "I'm exempt because I have a healthy diet and an excellent immune system" idiots can fuck right off.

Not quite sure what religion has to do with anything? You said that you were "100% of the opinion that people who, for no legitimate reason, refuse to be vaccinated should be very much at the back of the queue for for life-saving healthcare should they be hospitalised with COVID."

Okay, cool. What is a legitimate reason then? Only what's on that list? So, if "Johnny Foreigner" who doesn't trust our government, or who has issues with the concept of medical procedures for various reasons (see Keith's post above) doesn't get the vaccine and falls ill they should be left to die? 

Like most things in life, there's a grey area, a middle ground. It's not as clear cut as people with valid medical reasons or people who believe in conspiracy theories. 

1 hour ago, Tamura said:

Do you mean Angie Gibbs, who died after not getting vaccinated after she became "hooked on conspiracy theories" (direct quote from her mum)? Perhaps you mean Heather Maddern and Sammie-Jo Forde, a mother and daughter who spread conspiracy theories about vaccinations online before dying days apart? Perhaps you mean Richard Rose, who famously said ""Let make this clear. I'm not buying a fucking mask. I've made it this far by not buying into that damn hype" before dying of COVID a little over two months later? I could keep going, but my point has been demonstrated quite enough.

No, I mean the demographics I described in my post that you've completely ignored. As I said, it's not well-educated white people who are refusing this vaccine for the most part. Will there be a minority fringe section of society who believe the government is out to get them? Of course, and if you believe those people should be dismissed, mocked and left to die then fair enough. 

But those people don't make up the majority of the vaccine hesitant, like it or not.

1 hour ago, Tamura said:

What do you think is causing this so-called "vaccine hesitancy"? It wouldn't happen to be baseless conspiracy theories spread by anti-vaccine activists online by any chance would it?

No. It would more likely be a failure by our government and medical professionals to provide the information that people from different cultures and backgrounds need to help them make an informed decision. 

It would be a media which has, quite frankly, been despicable in its coverage of both the pandemic and the vaccine. While those well-educated white Brits who have received the vaccine can see through the media scaremongering and disgusting style of reporting, not everyone is lucky enough to be able to do so.

27 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

Not sure if you were arguing against what I posted when you quoted it, but that bit is pretty much what you were saying. 
 

There’s also a hesitancy from minority groups to be vaccinated due to historical examples of medical apartheid, white people using black people as Guinea pigs for medical trials etc. All over colonial Africa this shit happened and the lack of trust still lives. 

No, I was pretty much just discussing it. Your view was pretty much spot-on. What I'm worried about is this becoming a class issue. Let's vilify the less educated, less privileged among us who have legitimate fears for various reasons rather than say "hold up, let's see what they have concerns about and provide them with the answers and help they need to keep themselves and others around them safe."

[Keith Houchen]

44 minutes ago, David said:

No, I was pretty much just discussing it. Your view was pretty much spot-on. What I'm worried about is this becoming a class issue. Let's vilify the less educated, less privileged among us who have legitimate fears for various reasons rather than say "hold up, let's see what they have concerns about and provide them with the answers and help they need to keep themselves and others around them safe."

I’ve tried to have this discussion with people but what I’ve found is there is nothing that could be said to them that would change their minds. Quite a lot of these people I’ve spoke to believe their healthy lifestyle is all they need, it seems to be a thing in gyms. The division is often coming from these “Alpha” types who believe their superior fitness elevates them above weaker people who need vaccinations. And as a result, the weaker of the pack are laughed at for being sheep. 
 

One thing I try and try to get across to people is I’m not vaccinated because the government advised it, I’m vaccinated because my GP advised it. The government also mandate wearing a seatbelt but safety is the main reason people wear one. 

[Lenin]

10 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

The division is often coming from these “Alpha” types who believe their superior fitness elevates them above weaker people who need vaccinations.

Joe Rogan has a lot to answer for. 

[Keith Houchen]

3 minutes ago, Suplex Sinner said:

Joe Rogan has a lot to answer for. 

That’s a very good point!

[David]

30 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

I’ve tried to have this discussion with people but what I’ve found is there is nothing that could be said to them that would change their minds. Quite a lot of these people I’ve spoke to believe their healthy lifestyle is all they need, it seems to be a thing in gyms. The division is often coming from these “Alpha” types who believe their superior fitness elevates them above weaker people who need vaccinations. And as a result, the weaker of the pack are laughed at for being sheep. 

Oh, absolutely. There's guys like that in my BJJ gym. They don't understand that it's not an "either/or" situation. I consider myself to be in pretty healthy shape for someone my age, but I also recognise that the vaccine adds to that. Could I survive Covid if I caught it? I'd like to think so, but it's not just about surviving, is it? Why would I want to have my immune system battered and be out of training for a month or so when the vaccine could possibly assist me in recovering quicker and could be the difference between time spent in hospital rather than on my couch or in bed? 

Again though, it comes down to education, and the media situation I mentioned. If they're hearing from people they respect and even look up to that the vaccine isn't a sign of weakness but something that goes hand in hand with health and fitness they might think differently, but they're not being provided that information. 

My main concern isn't how people like those guys are treated though, it's people from the demographics I mentioned. Those who are actively afraid of the vaccine and potential side effects, who are afraid of the government and medical people due to experiences in their past and elsewhere in the world. It's those people who need their fears addressed and who need to shown a bit of compassion rather than told they're "anti vaxxers" and don't deserve the care that those of us lucky enough to be able to make an informed decision expect to receive. 

[wordsfromlee]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/dec/21/man-accused-of-chris-whitty-assault-contests-charges-in-dressing-gown

I bet he's one of those 'Sovereign Citizen' dickheads.

Some choice cuts from the article:

Quote

Chew, who denies common assault, appeared at Westminster magistrates court on Tuesday via video link from his bedroom in a dressing gown which slipped down to reveal his bare chest. His lawyer Peter Fallen told the court he had tested positive for coronavirus.

Shortly before the hearing started, Fallen told the court he was withdrawing from the case because he was “professionally embarrassed”.

During the hearing, Chew became increasingly exasperated and insisted Whitty should be at court for the trial. “The law is that I have the right for him to come,” he told the court. “I want Chris Whitty there.”

“I suspect I know a bit more about the law than you do,” Goldspring replied, explaining that Prof Whitty does not legally have to attend court as the facts of the case had been agreed between the prosecution and defence.

Chew, however, said that he had “diagnosed coronavirus”, adding to the judge: “Are you saying corona is not real now? Feel like what you’re doing now is victimising me. You’re calling me a liar.”

Goldspring said: “Your cavalier approach to the severity of these proceedings is breathtaking.”

“What does cavalier mean?” Chew interjected.

“Let me finish,” said Goldspring. “I’m entirely satisfied that you’re not so unwell that you can’t participate in your trial.”

[Keith Houchen]

There is a difference between an anti vaxxer and someone who won’t have the Covid vaccine. The former is opposed to ALL vaccines and the latter is opposed to one. I do wonder, however, if many opposed to Covid vaccines will take that mistrust with them. If they have kids in the near future, will they be opposed to all vaccinations for their child? The other aspect is how long will they give it before they accept the vaccine is safe. As I said, I get it that they’re concerned because it’s all new (although it isn’t really, it’s a modification of existing vaccines) but how long until they accept there aren’t long term effects? One person said to me it will be 25 years before they accept that, but I suspect that will be pushed back because they simply don’t want to believe it’s safe. 
 

I don’t want unvaccinated people to die, or get ill. But the compassion bit does go both ways. Maybe if they got off the high horse about their superior genetics and lifestyle, they wouldn’t be treated like a stereotypical thick gym bunny

[JNLister]

FWIW, "professionally embarassed" can mean the barrister has discovered a conflict of interests, but in this context it almost certainly means the defendant has admitted to them that they did it, but wanted to deny it in court. The general principle is you never ask your client if they did the crime, and you put forward the most unlikely argument if they ask you to, but if they ask you to knowingly lie (or knowingly let them lie in in court) you have to withdraw from the case.

Edited December 22, 2021 by JNLister

[David]

13 hours ago, Keith Houchen said:

I don’t want unvaccinated people to die, or get ill. But the compassion bit does go both ways. Maybe if they got off the high horse about their superior genetics and lifestyle, they wouldn’t be treated like a stereotypical thick gym bunny

It does go both ways. We need the gym bunny types to get off their superior genetic and lifestyle high horses, and the opposite side to stop looking down their nose at the great unwashed (unvaxxed) who they believe are nothing more than a blight on society who deserve to be cast aside like the Scraps who live underground in Demolition Man.

Edited December 23, 2021 by David

[BomberPat]

16 hours ago, Keith Houchen said:

I’ve tried to have this discussion with people but what I’ve found is there is nothing that could be said to them that would change their minds. Quite a lot of these people I’ve spoke to believe their healthy lifestyle is all they need, it seems to be a thing in gyms. The division is often coming from these “Alpha” types who believe their superior fitness elevates them above weaker people who need vaccinations. And as a result, the weaker of the pack are laughed at for being sheep. 

Most of what I noticed from the gymgoers early in the pandemic was that there was a lot of shifting arguments - I saw multiple people where first they would argue that their gyms were kept sanitised enough that they were safe and should be allowed to open during lockdown, and when that proved to be a non-starter, they moved to making arguments about how going to the gym is good for people's mental health and should be exempt on those grounds, then when that didn't work I saw the same people making economic arguments, and so on and so on.

A lot of the pipeline to Covid denialism and vaccine hesitancy comes from personal circumstance, and that sort of series of arguments where it's clear to everyone but them that they've decided on their preferred outcome and keep shifting their justification until one of them pays off. Eventually one of those justifications becomes "it's all fake anyway", or else in arguing for their gym (or pub, or restaurant, or small business, or whatever it might be) to be open, a mate comes along and says, "oh, I'm in a Facebook group about this that you'd be interested in", and they get an invite to a group that might not be all "5G causes Covid", but there's enough of it to drip feed that lack of trust into them - especially if that's the only place they see any "news" about it in the first place. People, generally, are really bad at recognising when they have shifted their own intellectual position to support their preferred outcome, so these people more often than not will think that they've been consistent the entire time - they'll think that what they believe now is exactly what they were arguing two years ago, without recognising the process that took them off-piste. 

It's fairly consistent with any conspiratorial thinking, but it's when you notice that a lot of the people denying the severity of Covid, or the efficacy of vaccines, manage to hold completely contradictory positions at once that I lose any sympathy, because they're beyond reasoning with at that point. My friend's sister-in-law is always posting "COVID HOAX" bullshit on Facebook, and one day the virus doesn't exist at all, the next day it was a biological weapon created in a lab - it can't be both. 

14 hours ago, Keith Houchen said:

There is a difference between an anti vaxxer and someone who won’t have the Covid vaccine. The former is opposed to ALL vaccines and the latter is opposed to one. I do wonder, however, if many opposed to Covid vaccines will take that mistrust with them. If they have kids in the near future, will they be opposed to all vaccinations for their child? The other aspect is how long will they give it before they accept the vaccine is safe. As I said, I get it that they’re concerned because it’s all new (although it isn’t really, it’s a modification of existing vaccines) but how long until they accept there aren’t long term effects? One person said to me it will be 25 years before they accept that, but I suspect that will be pushed back because they simply don’t want to believe it’s safe. 

This is the bit that particularly annoys me, and why I don't actually see any meaningful distinction between an anti-vaxxer in general and an anti-vaxxer purely in relation to the Covid vaccine. My friend's sister posted on Facebook, saying "It's not that I don't trust vaccines, I just don't think this one has been developed for long enough". Alright then, in order to rationally have arrived at that conclusion, surely you would have to explain to me how long "long enough" would be, what the process is to have a vaccine created and approved, and why you're not confident that this particular vaccine hasn't met those standards. You can't, because you've just got a Science GCSE and don't know any better than the rest of us.

Now, I don't know the answers to those questions either. But I trust that the scientists and medical professionals developing these vaccines do, because that level of trust-by-proxy is how we all get through life every day - I trust that the chef making my food when I go out for a meal knows how to cook, I trust that the bus driver isn't going to abandon his route and go off wherever he feels like, I trust that the companies manufacturing cars and home appliances are making them to a high enough standard that they won't just catch fire all the time, and I trust that the medicine I'm prescribed does what I'm told it will do to me as efficiently as possible and with a minimum of adverse side effects. We unthinkingly make those judgements hundreds of times a day, and vaccines are no different.

[David]

2 hours ago, BomberPat said:

But I trust that the scientists and medical professionals developing these vaccines do, because that level of trust-by-proxy is how we all get through life every day

What's your view on the numerous court cases and suchlike we've seen pharmaceutical companies hit with? And the fines they've paid? I'm not saying that they're the evil, dastardly characters some conspiracy theorists paint them as, but it can't really be denied that they make their profits from people being sick, not from people being healthy. And let's be honest, that's the name of the game here. Money and profit.

Wouldn't you agree that a healthy level of scepticism is required?