Paid Members Lorne Malvo Posted October 23, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted October 23, 2019 The company I work for has just had an email from our main supplier (based in Germany) saying we arn't getting any deliveries until the 21st November due to Brexit uncertainty. 90% of our other suppliers are based in EU countries too so I imagine they'll be working under similar guidelines. Our company typically has to get orders pushed out in around a weeks time, so this is a massive blow to us - it's pretty much going to kill our business for the entire month. My manager (who is as gammon as they come) has read the email and, after years of saying Brexit won't affect our business, responded with 'Well, if it does affect us - so be it'. And that's one of the problems with this whole scenario. It's become so divisive and boiled down into binary 'us vs them' that, even when faced with the fact that the shit you've been spouting for years is fucking wrong, the reply is 'so be it'. Nobody wants to budge an inch or admit that they may be incorrect even when this shit is affecting jobs and lives. To top it off, the managers son (who just parrots his dads opinions) just added to the debate 'All politicians lie anyway - it's like that time Jeremy Corbyn was on the train'.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Chunk Posted October 23, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted October 23, 2019 13 hours ago, JNLister said: The vote Johnson won was for the Second Reading of the Withdrawal Agreement Bill, which is what approves the EU deal and puts it into British law. Second Reading is where you vote to approve the general principles and move on to more debate. It's not a vote to make it law. Instead you go on to committee stage where MPs can propose and vote on amendments to it. You then have a final vote on the bill (including any amendments) called Third Reading. It then goes through the same process in the Lords and if it gets the thumbs up there it becomes law. The "majority" is that 329 MPs have voted for the general principle of accepting the deal. Given those who voted against today are almost certainly not going to approve the final bill, Johnson needs to get through the amendment process to the final bill without losing the support of 15 or more MPs. That's possible but very tricky given different groups have very different ideas about what amendments they'd like to see and what other people's amendments they'd accept. That's all on hold anyway thanks to losing the second vote, which was on the proposed timetable of getting to Third Reading in the Commons by the end of Thursday, which was objectively a ludicrous proposition. In theory Johnson now has to come back with a new proposed timetable that allows longer for debate. In practice the EU is going to grant the extension and he's not going to get the bill passed by October 31st, so he's almost certainly going to try again for a general election and campaign on needing a strong majority to pass the deal. Thanks for this. It's a better, clearer, more straightforward explanation than I've been able to find anywhere else online. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallicks Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Chest Rockwell said: I'm with you on Corbyn. I can't imagine how the hardcore like @hallicks can explain this away with 'media bias'. A strong and consistent message is what is needed to cut through and they haven't had one. I wonder why, after 4 years of relentless character assassination, Corbyn isn't ahead in the polls? Very strange. He should be able to magically undo all the machinations in play designed to keep him out of power without any help from anyone. What a plonker. The left just needs to stop complaining about 'media bias' and basically go away forever so we can all return to our nice neoliberal orthodoxy like in 2014 when everything was fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Dead Mike Posted October 23, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted October 23, 2019 31 minutes ago, hallicks said: I wonder why, after 4 years of relentless character assassination, Corbyn isn't ahead in the polls? Very strange. He should be able to magically undo all the machinations in play designed to keep him out of power without any help from anyone. What a plonker. The left just needs to stop complaining about 'media bias' and basically go away forever so we can all return to our nice neoliberal orthodoxy like in 2014 when everything was fine. It's this mindset why Labour are fucked. Of course Corbyn's been the victim of media bias but whining about it doesn't change the current reality. No amount of moaning will suddenly make enough of electorate think he's not completely toxic. Either accept reality, react & actually have a chance of getting rid of the Tories or keep whining & be in permanent opposition. A depressing number of Labour members would rather the latter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Chest Rockwell Posted October 23, 2019 Moderators Share Posted October 23, 2019 (edited) Oh ok, so you are actually going to blame it all on media bias. Cool. That solves that one then. Edit - ( @hallicks obviously) If it really is 100% media bias like you claim and he's not at all fucking inept what's your proposed solution? I mean, assuming you've defined precisely what the problem is and that's been a known quantity for a while now presumably you've got some thoughts as to what a feasible plan to deal with that would be..? Edited October 23, 2019 by Chest Rockwell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted October 23, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted October 23, 2019 18 minutes ago, Dead Mike said: It's this mindset why Labour are fucked. Of course Corbyn's been the victim of media bias but whining about it doesn't change the current reality. No amount of moaning will suddenly make enough of electorate think he's not completely toxic. Either accept reality, react & actually have a chance of getting rid of the Tories or keep whining & be in permanent opposition. A depressing number of Labour members would rather the latter. This is true, but a part of it is rooted (I would venture to guess, as it's definitely the case for me) in the belief that, no matter who sticks their head above the parapet, anyone from the Labour left is going to come under fire in the exact same way, until they either get into No.10, or until the party finally gives in and elects a Blairite to the position. Any single one of the people I mentioned above could take over, and they'd have the Heil, the S*n, the Times, the Torygraph, the Express, and even the fucking Guardian coming after them for whatever trumped-up reason. Like I said, it wasn't just Corbyn - it was Miliband too. To use a line of reasoning from James Baldwin: I don't know if the media is in itself anti-left or not, but I know that by-and-large it's chucked a lot of shit at even remotely left-wing leaders, and with vitriol that it simply hasn't at any right-wing ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted October 23, 2019 Author Paid Members Share Posted October 23, 2019 52 minutes ago, Dead Mike said: Either accept reality, react & actually have a chance of getting rid of the Tories or keep whining & be in permanent opposition. A depressing number of Labour members would rather the latter. Examples? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Factotum Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 Must say, on Corbyn, that was a blistering PMQs from him, especially pulling The Clown up on his failure to understand his own deal. .  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members stumobir Posted October 23, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted October 23, 2019 (edited) You have to ask if it's a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy though, even before Corbyn won the leadership back in 2015 he was painted as being unelectable, even by his own party. Roll on two years and despite apparently trailing more than 20 points in the polls, he goes on to have an excellent campaign and Labour makes a net gain in the number of seats for the first time since 1997 and has the largest vote share since 2001. All the while working against the tide of the MSM smearing him as everything from terrorist, anti-Semite to Russian sympathiser. Even the fundamentally unbiased BBC got involved in the action with Laura Kuenssberg being found to misrepresent his views during an interview. The stuff Milliband had to deal with absolutely pales in comparison. If Labour can make this upcoming general election about policy and social justice, they're in with a shout. If they fall for what I assume will be Johnson and Cummings' plan, which will be to make it all about Brexit with a bit of personality politics in there, then they're screwed. Could Corbyn handle some things better? Absolutely. But to pretend that the perpetual and often personal attacks, even from within his own ranks, aren't a massive ball and chain around his ankle, is head in the sand stuff.  Edited October 23, 2019 by stumobir made an arse of posting a link... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Chest Rockwell Posted October 23, 2019 Moderators Share Posted October 23, 2019 1 minute ago, stumobir said: to pretend that the perpetual and often personal attacks, even from within his own ranks, aren't a massive ball and chain around his ankle, is head in the sand stuff. I can't find a single person here who has made that claim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallicks Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Chest Rockwell said: Oh ok, so you are actually going to blame it all on media bias. Cool. That solves that one then. Edit - ( @hallicks obviously) If it really is 100% media bias like you claim and he's not at all fucking inept what's your proposed solution? I mean, assuming you've defined precisely what the problem is and that's been a known quantity for a while now presumably you've got some thoughts as to what a feasible plan to deal with that would be..? I'm pretty sure I've said before that I think he's made mistakes and he could have done better in areas. I've disagreed with things he's done, I wouldn't have saved shitarse Watson when Lansman tried to fuck him off for a start. This is where it boils down to the magic of electability and acceptable political discourse. Obviously, there isn't a solution to the media's entrenched institutional hatred of anything left of Gordon Brown, and without huge reforms, there never will be. That doesn't mean it's not worth mentioning, because it's brainwashing on an industrial scale. But nobody likes to think they're capable of being hoodwinked in such a manner. So I think this is what Dead Mike is saying about "rather be in permanent opposition" - the idea that it's better to have someone "less shit" like Tony Blair and be in power than have someone who is a principled politician and presents a genuine alternative but is forever ixnayed by the media and so can't get into power. Proof would be someone like MPDTT who has openly wailed about the demise of the labour right, and wasn't it all better when labour weren't socialist? We must get back within our limits of what politicians are allowed to say and do. The "electability" thing may be a moot point anyway, if these voter ID reforms get passed. Edited October 23, 2019 by hallicks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted October 23, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted October 23, 2019 10 minutes ago, stumobir said: The stuff Milliband had to deal with absolutely pales in comparison. Absolutely - my point wasn't the degree, it was the simple fact of it. Lord knows what would happen if they had an actual hard left-winger as leader - the press would probably make him/her out to be the worst thing since Hitler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members stumobir Posted October 23, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted October 23, 2019 (edited) Edit  -  @Chest, obviously. You asserted that he's inept and Dead Mike claims he's unelectable. I'm arguing that he's neither and this is the narrative that the media are peddling and that's his main hindrance. I didn't think that was unclear. Edited October 23, 2019 by stumobir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Dead Mike Posted October 23, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted October 23, 2019 3 hours ago, Devon Malcolm said: Examples? Anyone who stilll supports him as leader. https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/jeremy-corbyn/news/106687/jeremy-corbyn-most-unpopular The most unpopular oppostion leader of the past 45 years. Approval ratings still worse than Johnson & worse than May when she was in her final days. Anyone who seriously cares about getting rid of the Tories & isn't a fantasist must recognise that people fucking hate him? At what point does continuing to support him as leader become akin to enablng the Government? 2 hours ago, stumobir said: Edit  -  @Chest, obviously. You asserted that he's inept and Dead Mike claims he's unelectable. I'm arguing that he's neither and this is the narrative that the media are peddling and that's his main hindrance. I didn't think that was unclear. You think he's electable but this is based on nothing other than wishful thinking. There's literally nothing that suggests he could beat Johnson in a GE right now. The Labour bounce in the last GE came from people still thinking Labour were anti-Brexit (which they've since fucked) & the fact that the Tories announced the 'dementia tax' & fox hunting in their manifesto. The Corbyn 'youthquake' never happened (https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/there-was-no-youthquake-so-why-did-labour-do-unexpectedly-well-at-the-election) despite people claiming he''d got young Brits interested in politics again. Turned out they just liked chanting his name. FWIW I like Corbyn, I paid my £3 & voted for him as leader as it seemed like the right direction to go in. He's done his job & needs to have the self awareness to step aside if Labour are serious about winning an election. He won't though because he's still buzzing from losing the last one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Chest Rockwell Posted October 23, 2019 Moderators Share Posted October 23, 2019 26 minutes ago, Dead Mike said: Turned out they just liked chanting his name. I think the best way to sum it up is that the segment he is most popular with is non voters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.