Brexit

[Sphinx]

1 hour ago, Devon Malcolm said:

You can tell the non-Stewart Lee watchers in this thread, can't you.

A sensible decision even if you don't agree with them voting Brexit.

[Keith Houchen]

25 minutes ago, Dead Mike said:

The ERG types & enough to avoid calling a referendum which he never wanted.

Yep. He, like a lot of people, thought we were heading for another coalition so he could drop the promise of the referendum by saying it was a concession to his partners. Then when they won a majority he had shit the bed with it and we all paid for it while he went off and put his trotters up. Twat. 

[The Gaffer]

1 hour ago, Devon Malcolm said:

You can tell the non-Stewart Lee watchers in this thread, can't you.

Reads like a sketch on a Stewart Lee fans inner monologue. 

Written by Lee himself. 

[David]

2 hours ago, Carbomb said:

We've had this discussion before, David, and I'll say again: that may be true, but at least the Brexiters' lives wouldn't be adversely affected any more than it had been so far.

That's true. Life in places like Northumberland, Tyneside and Sunderland was shit already, and would likely have remained shit had the UK voted to remain. There's a chance they'll still be shit after Brexit, but I guess that's a risk they saw worth taking.

2 hours ago, Carbomb said:

And I still dispute your assertion - if the result had gone the other way, the sheer closeness of it would have at least been a kick up the backside to the political establishment that maybe they've been skirting too close to the wind, and that they needed to get serious about reform.

Any kind of reform would have needed the green light from the EU, and the kind of reform that those who voted to leave want isn't going to get that, is it? A lot of these working class northern places don't like the free movement of labour (lets call it what it is) as it narrows their chances of landing one of those manual labour jobs that no one wants. 

They might be wrong, and no doubt there's a tidy line of southerners who are happy to educate them on the matter, but that's how they see things. Does that make them racists and bigots? That's not for me to judge. What I do know is that nothing has been done to help them before now, has it? These feelings didn't just appear six months prior to the vote.

The political establishment has let vast chunks of the country down, and it's them who should be in the firing line. Things shouldn't have been allowed to get this bad, and I'm guessing that people in the affected areas are a bit tired of hearing about how reform is just around the corner so long as they "play the game" and don't upset the applecart.

People are mighty pissed off, on both sides, and deservedly so. Both sides of the divide have been let down by the shambolic governments we've had over the years.

2 hours ago, Carbomb said:

And also, let's not be coy here: Brexiters can complain about being called racists as much as they want, but the fact is it's well-founded in history. Every time the economy goes to shit and ordinary people start suffering, they start blaming immigrants, foreigners, and ethnic minorities, instead of blaming the governments who let it happen, and demagogic cunts like Hitler, Mosley, Enoch Powell, Griffin, and Farage stoke those flames. If they want to avoid being called racists, how about actually proving it, instead of indulging in the same rhetoric that they used?

That's all very true, but the remainers are just as guilty of not blaming the line of governments for the current predicament. It's all too easy to blame the 'Tories, or the uneducated racists, but this has all been built on a foundation laid by Tony Blair and Gordon Brown. Boris and his buddies are just thriving in the chaos. 

Both sides of the debate have been let down by successive governments, and the continual bickering we're seeing within the population on all sides is just adding to the woes everyone is going to be suffering.

We need leave voters to cut their pish with the "get over it" shite, and we need remainers to quit throwing racist cards all over the place and looking down their noses at the uneducated masses. 

The answer to this shitshow isn't to kick up fuck until we get back into the EU, as that wouldn't deal with the very real issues that millions of people who voted to leave have, or to goad well-meaning people by telling them they lost and to shut up. We need to turn our attention as a collective to the mugs running this country and get our shit in order. 

But we won't. Because "winning" is more important. Being right is more important. It's a fucking disgraceful state of affairs really.

Edited January 31, 2020 by David

[Carbomb]

Anyway, let's speak pragmatically here: if the government and the Brexit lot really want Brexit to work and to re-unite the country, they can't carry on the way they have been. At some point, they have to recognise that this is not about one portion of the UK getting its way outright over the other; this is a decision that affects the entire country, and they need to start planning things that benefit everybody. They can't just keep yelling "you lost, get over it", because the response now is "you won - now do something about it".

If they choose to continue ignoring the narrow minority, we're going to see a lot more turmoil and damage done. People can laugh at Scotland going for another independence referendum, but this entire process has really brought into the light just how contemptuous England's politicians and people can be of the rest of the people in the Union. Scotland's had its voice ignored yet again, and this time it's on the back of them being actually conned, so this problem isn't going away.

As for Norn Iron - I've heard a few different voices, but most of them have said they can see NI breaking away. Whether that leads to re-unification or simply an independent NI I don't know, but for the first time in a long time, the people of NI have finally experienced what it's like to have their voices ignored by Westminster, Unionist and Republican alike. Unless the Tories get their heads out of their arses, and stop listening to the extreme fringes, we could lose Northern Ireland too.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, David said:

These feelings didn't just appear six months prior to the vote.

 

2 hours ago, Uncle Zeb said:

 

[Carbomb]

1 minute ago, David said:

That's true. Life in places like Northumberland, Tyneside and Sunderland was shit already, and would likely have remained shit had the UK voted to remain. There's a chance they'll still be shit after Brexit, but I guess that's a risk they saw worth taking.

Absolutely. Which is why it's infuriating they didn't see fit to blame successive UK governments for this. But the added frustration is that they're behaving like the electorate in the US, listening to the likes of Farage "because he's not a politician" - he's still a part of the establishment that fucked this country up, but for some reason they can't see this.

1 minute ago, David said:

Any kind of reform would have needed the green light from the EU, and the kind of reform that those who voted to leave want isn't going to get that, is it? A lot of these working class northern places don't like the free movement of labour (lets call it what it is) as it narrows their chances of landing one of those manual labour jobs that no one wants. 

They might be wrong, and no doubt there's a tidy line of southerners who are happy to educate them on the matter, but that's how they see things. Does that make them racists and bigots? That's not for me to judge. What I do know is that nothing has been done to help them before now, has it? These feelings didn't just appear six months prior to the vote.

As Dead Mike pointed out above, that's more down to the failure of spokespeople for Remain to highlight that we always had the controls they wanted, and also down to the media for peddling and strengthening the narrative that everything that is wrong with this country is down to the EU and foreigners. (And yes - a big part of the blame is on the EU, for the economic direction this country took the past forty years, but that's not the story they're selling.)

The second bit - as I've said: blaming foreigners, immigrants and ethnic minorities for their suffering doesn't make them not bigots and racists, either. And there's historical precedent for that. I don't 100% blame them for feeling betrayed and wanting to fight back, and I lay that blame square at the foot of Blair and his Labour party. The Tories are always gonna Tory, and we expect that from them, but Blair continued Labour's tradition of rank betrayal of the working class almost every time they were in power.

1 minute ago, David said:

The political establishment has let vast chunks of the country down, and it's them who should be in the firing line. Things shouldn't have been allowed to get this bad, and I'm guessing that people in the affected areas are a bit tired of hearing about how reform is just around the corner so long as they "play the game" and don't upset the applecart.

People are mighty pissed off, on both sides, and deservedly so. Both sides of the divide have been let down by the shambolic governments we've had over the years.

Abso-fucking-lutely. No dispute from me on this side.

1 minute ago, David said:

That's all very true, but the remainers are just as guilty of not blaming the government for the current predicament. It's all too easy to blame the 'Tories, or the uneducated racists, but this has all been built on a foundation laid by Tony Blair and Gordon Brown. Boris and his buddies are just thriving in the chaos. 

Both sides of the debate have been let down by successive governments, and the continual bickering we're seeing within the population on all sides is just adding to the woes everyone is going to be suffering.

Yup.

1 minute ago, David said:

We need leave voters to cut their pish with the "get over it" shite, and we need remainers to quit throwing racist cards all over the place and looking down their noses at the uneducated masses. 

We also need to see fewer cases of foreigners/ethnic minorities being attacked or abused in the street by people yelling "we voted to Leave, go home". I haven't heard of any cases of Remainers attacking Leavers outside the usual EDL/Britain First lot (and that's not really about Brexit).

1 minute ago, David said:

The answer to this shitshow isn't to kick up fuck until we get back into the EU, as that wouldn't deal with the very real issues that millions of people who voted to leave have, or to goad well-meaning people by telling them they lost and to shut up. We need to turn our attention as a collective to the mugs running this country and get our shit in order. 

But we won't. Because "winning" is more important. Being right is more important. It's a fucking disgraceful state of affairs really.

Partly that, but we primarily won't because the mugs running this country aren't being held to account, because racist narratives are being peddled with dog-whistle terms, and because shitcunts like Farage and Robinson continue to get exposure - all that does is tell Remainers that their first reactions and their worst fears were correct. 

And let's not forget - the mugs in power are the ones who helped sell this narrative in the first place. Rees-Mogg, Johnson, et al have all run up their colours in league with white supremacists, Breitbart, the ERG, etc., so this idea that Remainers should suddenly shut up and try and help Brexit become a success is premature - as long as they feel Brexit's being run by these people, there's not going to be any co-operation, because co-operation means enabling them.

[PJ Power]

1 hour ago, Porkchopcash said:

I find quite a high percentge of the people who voted remain can be very aggressive towards those who voted leave. And throwing about terms like “racist” and “stupid” does not do their cause any good. Just makes them seem bitter. 

Funny that. The majority of people that voted for the UK to leave the EU are in my experience the types whom are often very aggressive to pet peeves of theirs, love frauds like Farage for apparently "telling like it is", throwing around "woke" and "snowflake" as insults like there's no tomorrow, labelled "remoaners" as scum, traitors, unpatriotic, filth, against "the will of the people" etc. etc. So if some of their shit gets thrown back at them, then tough. Thin skinned bullies whom love to give it out but can't take it. And even if you did vote leave but don't honestly see yourself from the description above, then you have to fess up to your choice in (a) you have to take responsibility for looking to change the political status quo of the country in such a major way, and (b) realise that even of you chose with the best of intentions, you have helped enable some very undesirable people to not only celebrate a fairly narrow referendum victory that was tainted by all sorts of interference that had it been done during a general election would have seen the ballot declared void as a win to "own dem liburals" but also in effect start a culture war. There probably is a decent reason to wanting the UK to leave the EU for the betterment of the nation that is not tied in some way to racism or general stupidity (though I've yet to hear it beyond empty soundbites) but the cold truth was/is that "leave" was number one with racists and thick fucks.

1 hour ago, Porkchopcash said:

I don’t know, just like the people who voted remain have no idea how things will turn out.

And here is the problem with holding the referendum in the first place. In countries that have either some sort of popular ballot on a regular basis for local or regional matters, or whose written Constitution requires a referendum as part of the process to amend any part of it (so places like Rep. of Ireland, Switzerland, Australia, various states in the USA etc.) civics lessons that are taught in schools there empathise that in such a ballot, unless you have sufficient confidence in voting for a change  according to the terms laid out on the ballot, then you should vote to retain the status quo. And this is where your claim about remainers not knowing how things will turn out fails, and fails badly. Of course no one has a bona-fide crystal ball as to exactly what events turn out to be regardless of whatever outcome from a vote gives. However, staying on at least a predictable path gives a greater chance of planning for the future ahead. I'm going to have to swallow a gulp down my throat saying this, but this was one of the few things Margaret Thatcher was actually right about - holding populist referenda that seeks to take decisions out of lawmakers hands concerning matters of national governance in the context of the long standing system in the UK of Parliamentary Sovereignty in a representative democracy with no formal, written constitution is a recipe for utter disaster. This goes in parallel with the UK in general having no effective history of national referenda. Sure, there was the 1975 Common Market referendum, and the fig leaf of an AV voting reform referendum in 2011, as well as more local ballots concerning devolution and some local matters, but to sound like a stuck record there is no formal method within the British political constitution for popular referenda through the centuries, let alone decades. Therefore, there is no real need to cover this when educating people in the UK on civics and civil rights, thus most not being aware of the idea concerning voting in a referendum to change something - which the more mendacious elements of the leave campaign were only to happy to exploit with slogans like "project fear".

And you may not be aware of this, but admitting that you have no idea what the future holds, thanks to you contributing to the decision for the UK to leave the EU, can't be seen as anything other than being utterly stupid. Sure, Brexit could be the best thing to happen to the UK since the 1701 Act of Union, but the broad forecasts for the country ahead paint a bleak picture - we have one of the more prominent leave campaigners admitting that it could take the UK 50 years to economically recover from leaving the EU. FIFTY F**KING YEARS! So if you're "tired of experts" and want to risk not only the economic future of not only the UK, but the actual UK itself, by voting to go on a crap shoot, then quite honestly you should not be surprised that some people might call you stupid.

11pm tonight will not mark "Brexit getting done" - indeed there is still some way to go on that. What it will mark is the UK's - or at least England's - chickens finally coming home to roost.

 

[SuperBacon]

26 minutes ago, PJ Power said:

11pm tonight will not mark "Brexit getting done" - indeed there is still some way to go on that. What it will mark is the UK's - or at least England's -NON CHLORINATED chickens finally coming home to roost.

Fixed for you mate 

[Porkchopcash]

@PJ Power

Aka Terry Christian.

You prove my point perfectly.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Porkchopcash

[David]

1 hour ago, Carbomb said:

Absolutely. Which is why it's infuriating they didn't see fit to blame successive UK governments for this.

They did. There's long been grumbles of discontent as to how Labour has been going about its business, and many of these areas remained "Labour strongholds" for a lot longer than they probably should have. 

This isn't a 'one or the other' choice. If you think people in that part of the country are now under the belief that everything is rosy now that the EU is out of the picture you're wrong. They saw the EU as part of the problem due to their stringent policies when it comes to freedom of labour.

They're voting for Boris and his chums because they've spent decades voting Labour and got nowhere. And our political system is such that it's either red or blue. Red ain't been working, so blue it is. For now, anyway.

1 hour ago, Carbomb said:

But the added frustration is that they're behaving like the electorate in the US, listening to the likes of Farage "because he's not a politician" - he's still a part of the establishment that fucked this country up, but for some reason they can't see this.

You're a little guilty of speaking about "them" as some sort of homogeneous group. They're not all listening to Farage and buying his shit, otherwise him and his party would have fared a lot better in General Elections. He's never even been elected as an MP, has he? 

Farage and his type will always be popular with a certain demographic, but it's never usually enough to make any real difference. 

1 hour ago, Carbomb said:

As Dead Mike pointed out above, that's more down to the failure of spokespeople for Remain to highlight that we always had the controls they wanted, and also down to the media for peddling and strengthening the narrative that everything that is wrong with this country is down to the EU and foreigners. (And yes - a big part of the blame is on the EU, for the economic direction this country took the past forty years, but that's not the story they're selling.)

Regardless of who's pointing it out, the fact is that the Remain group simply didn't get the job done. the spokespeople for the remain side of the argument either got it completely wrong, or they simply didn't give enough of a fuck about people in those unfashionable parts of the country.

1 hour ago, Carbomb said:

The second bit - as I've said: blaming foreigners, immigrants and ethnic minorities for their suffering doesn't make them not bigots and racists, either. And there's historical precedent for that. I don't 100% blame them for feeling betrayed and wanting to fight back, and I lay that blame square at the foot of Blair and his Labour party. The Tories are always gonna Tory, and we expect that from them, but Blair continued Labour's tradition of rank betrayal of the working class almost every time they were in power.

Of course it doesn't make them not bigots or racists. There are racists and bigots everywhere that human beings are found, that's always been the case. Where the problem lies here is in tarring everyone who voted to leave, or who has an issue with immigration with the same stick. Anyone who dares to stick their head out and admit to voting leave is immediately branded in a certain way, and is usually interrogated to explain their reasoning. 

I'm not saying that there aren't a lot of people with questionable views, or who don't quite grasp the intricate workings of the EU and UK governmental systems, but if the aim is to convince people to come together and try to move forward then a more conciliatory approach is needed on both sides. And for me, I kind of expect the more clued-in, educated and fortunate among us to take the mantle on that. Saying "well, they like Farage and think he's great, so fuck them, the scumbag racist pricks!" isn't helping. I'm not saying that's what you're saying by the way, just speaking in general.

And another thing, I've seen plenty of politicians and media types smugly asking those who voted to leave why they did it, only to quickly point out how wrong they are. Well, maybe if a less condescending tone had been taken in the build up to the referendum things may have been different. No one enjoys being told how wrong or stupid they are. I see it all the time online. Chat about "stupid 'boomers, chortle chortle," well, guess what? You're gonna need some of those "morons" on your side if you want to further your own agenda, aren't you? 

We need the younger, more savvy out there to lend a helping hand to those who may be getting duped by the mainstream media, or who believe what Farage says because "he's on the telly." Those people are getting shat on as much as you are. Getting things moving in the right direction benefits everyone.

But in the end there's not enough people interested in actually making progress, so I'd have been as well not bothering. Neither would you in all honesty. Me and you sitting here discussing this like two actual adults is akin to two well-dressed chaps in a house debating the colour of the drapes while a category A fucking hurricane approaches that will destroy all and sundry.

I know you think I'm negative on this matter, but it's seriously fucked mate. There's no real return from where we are now. The Roman empire fell, and so can western society eventually.

Fuck it, Thistle and Ayr are on the telly tonight. That'll do me plenty.

[Carbomb]

2 minutes ago, David said:

They did. There's long been grumbles of discontent as to how Labour has been going about its business, and many of these areas remained "Labour strongholds" for a lot longer than they probably should have. 

This isn't a 'one or the other' choice. If you think people in that part of the country are now under the belief that everything is rosy now that the EU is out of the picture you're wrong. They saw the EU as part of the problem due to their stringent policies when it comes to freedom of labour.

They're voting for Boris and his chums because they've spent decades voting Labour and got nowhere. And our political system is such that it's either red or blue. Red ain't been working, so blue it is. For now, anyway.

I'd get that if the Tories hadn't just spent the previous six years fucking them as much as Labour had.

The whole red-or-blue thing is equally exasperating. The Scots and Welsh have an alternative to all that (although admittedly in Wales, PC don't seem to be benefiting from Tory-Labour fatigue as much as I'd like them to be), but there aren't really any English versions of that.

2 minutes ago, David said:

You're a little guilty of speaking about "them" as some sort of homogeneous group. They're not all listening to Farage and buying his shit, otherwise him and his party would have fared a lot better in General Elections. He's never even been elected as an MP, has he? 

Farage and his type will always be popular with a certain demographic, but it's never usually enough to make any real difference. 

Being elected MP isn't the be-all and end-all of having political influence, as I'm sure you're aware. He doesn't have to be popular - only the narrative he and his ilk peddles does. And when you've got the likes of Steve Bannon in the shadows pulling strings and helping co-ordinate the right, it very much becomes a "total greater than the sum of its parts" situation. Yet another infuriating thing about this entire shitshow is that it's clear the tail is wagging the dog.

2 minutes ago, David said:

Regardless of who's pointing it out, the fact is that the Remain group simply didn't get the job done. the spokespeople for the remain side of the argument either got it completely wrong, or they simply didn't give enough of a fuck about people in those unfashionable parts of the country.

Absolutely. As I mentioned, Dead Mike pointed that out earlier as regards Cameron, plus I've always maintained that we were never going to get the truth about the EU from the politicians campaigning for Remain, because that would involve having to admit that it was they, and not the EU, to blame for all the problems all these people are going through.

2 minutes ago, David said:

Of course it doesn't make them not bigots or racists. There are racists and bigots everywhere that human beings are found, that's always been the case. Where the problem lies here is in tarring everyone who voted to leave, or who has an issue with immigration with the same stick. Anyone who dares to stick their head out and admit to voting leave is immediately branded in a certain way, and is usually interrogated to explain their reasoning. 

I'm not saying that there aren't a lot of people with questionable views, or who don't quite grasp the intricate workings of the EU and UK governmental systems, but if the aim is to convince people to come together and try to move forward then a more conciliatory approach is needed on both sides. And for me, I kind of expect the more clued-in, educated and fortunate among us to take the mantle on that. Saying "well, they like Farage and think he's great, so fuck them, the scumbag racist pricks!" isn't helping. I'm not saying that's what you're saying by the way, just speaking in general.

True, but again - it's easier to be conciliatory when the actual scumbag racist pricks aren't out there physically attacking or verbally abusing ethnic minorities and citing Brexit as their justification. Until the Brexit side properly distances itself from that, all it's going to look like to Remainers is "well, if we co-operate, we'll just be taking one more step along the slow, gradual road to fascism".

Brexiters can't just say "it's time to heal the divide" - right now they've got everything they want, and fuck everyone else. They're going to have to show they actually give a fuck about healing the divide, and not paying lip-service to it. Remainers are saying shit, that is true - but that's all they're doing. Brexiters are doing things that affect people materially, and they hold the power.

2 minutes ago, David said:

And another thing, I've seen plenty of politicians and media types smugly asking those who voted to leave why they did it, only to quickly point out how wrong they are. Well, maybe if a less condescending tone had been taken in the build up to the referendum things may have been different. No one enjoys being told how wrong or stupid they are. I see it all the time online. Chat about "stupid 'boomers, chortle chortle," well, guess what? You're gonna need some of those "morons" on your side if you want to further your own agenda, aren't you? 

We need the younger, more savvy out there to lend a helping hand to those who may be getting duped by the mainstream media, or who believe what Farage says because "he's on the telly." Those people are getting shat on as much as you are. Getting things moving in the right direction benefits everyone.

But in the end there's not enough people interested in actually making progress, so I'd have been as well not bothering. Neither would you in all honesty. Me and you sitting here discussing this like two actual adults is akin to two well-dressed chaps in a house debating the colour of the drapes while a category A fucking hurricane approaches that will destroy all and sundry.

I know you think I'm negative on this matter, but it's seriously fucked mate. There's no real return from where we are now. The Roman empire fell, and so can western society eventually.

Fuck it, Thistle and Ayr are on the telly tonight. That'll do me plenty.

Yeah, it's absolutely fucked. It works on an individual level to call people out on their stupidity, but en masse it's impossible, because co-operation is needed. Democracy is rule by consensus, but not being correct by consensus. Apologies for the pomposity, but the example of Athens voting to slaughter the citizens of Mytilene then changing their mind straight afterwards is a millennia-old precedent example.

In real terms, I'm still fairly positive, because it does mean that everything the Lexit argument entails is still on the table. There is now a chance for genuine left-wing politics to make some headway in this country without the neoliberalism of the EU in the way, but I'm under no illusions that it's going to be one hell of a war, and in all likelihood one we'll lose.

[David]

1 minute ago, Carbomb said:

I'd get that if the Tories hadn't just spent the previous six years fucking them as much as Labour had.

The whole red-or-blue thing is equally exasperating. The Scots and Welsh have an alternative to all that (although admittedly in Wales, PC don't seem to be benefiting from Tory-Labour fatigue as much as I'd like them to be), but there aren't really any English versions of that.

The Scottish thing isn't the norm though, it's all based on the carrot & stick of independence. The SNP are running Scotland into the ground in all honesty, but the evergreen promise of independence keeps people electing them.

4 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Being elected MP isn't the be-all and end-all of having political influence, as I'm sure you're aware. He doesn't have to be popular - only the narrative he and his ilk peddles does. And when you've got the likes of Steve Bannon in the shadows pulling strings and helping co-ordinate the right, it very much becomes a "total greater than the sum of its parts" situation. Yet another infuriating thing about this entire shitshow is that it's clear the tail is wagging the dog.

Yeah, but you'd think if everyone who voted to leave thought he was the mutts nuts they'd surely vote for him in greater numbers come the real elections? They don't though, because while people like to watch him do his thing, he isn't taken all that seriously. And he seems fine with that, he's found a niche that works for him. 

As for the likes of Bannon, and even Dominic Cummings, you can't really blame them for being nasty pieces of work. They don't hide that fact. What the real problem is, is that the left don't seem able to reach into its bag of highly educated types and pull out someone who can match these guys move for move. The left are all too busy arguing among themselves to do that.

8 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

True, but again - it's easier to be conciliatory when the actual scumbag racist pricks aren't out there physically attacking or verbally abusing ethnic minorities and citing Brexit as their justification. Until the Brexit side properly distances itself from that, all it's going to look like to Remainers is "well, if we co-operate, we'll just be taking one more step along the slow, gradual road to fascism".

There isn't 19 odd million people out there physically attacking people though, is there? It's a relatively small minority. I'm not talking about trying to reconcile with them, that type are scumbags. I'm on about the rest of the majority who voted leave for various reasons. The pensioners, the working class types who don't abuse people on the streets.

10 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Yeah, it's absolutely fucked. It works on an individual level to call people out on their stupidity, but en masse it's impossible, because co-operation is needed. Democracy is rule by consensus, but not being correct by consensus. Apologies for the pomposity, but the example of Athens voting to slaughter the citizens of Mytilene then changing their mind straight afterwards is a millennia-old precedent example.

In real terms, I'm still fairly positive, because it does mean that everything the Lexit argument entails is still on the table. There is now a chance for genuine left-wing politics to make some headway in this country without the neoliberalism of the EU in the way, but I'm under no illusions that it's going to be one hell of a war, and in all likelihood one we'll lose.

Exactly, which is why it's almost time to get the whiskey opened and get the Thistle game on the set.

[Carbomb]

2 minutes ago, David said:

The Scottish thing isn't the norm though, it's all based on the carrot & stick of independence. The SNP are running Scotland into the ground in all honesty, but the evergreen promise of independence keeps people electing them.

I'll have to take your word for it. I keep hearing varying reports about the SNP's stewardship of Scotland.

2 minutes ago, David said:

Yeah, but you'd think if everyone who voted to leave thought he was the mutts nuts they'd surely vote for him in greater numbers come the real elections? They don't though, because while people like to watch him do his thing, he isn't taken all that seriously. And he seems fine with that, he's found a niche that works for him. 

As for the likes of Bannon, and even Dominic Cummings, you can't really blame them for being nasty pieces of work. They don't hide that fact. What the real problem is, is that the left don't seem able to reach into its bag of highly educated types and pull out someone who can match these guys move for move. The left are all too busy arguing among themselves to do that.

By the same token, how is it the Brexit Party, despite literally not existing until a few months prior to the MEP elections, managed to draw a shit-ton of votes? Because he set them up. And when you consider that he doesn't need to be massively popular, because there's the likes of Rees-Mogg, Francois, etc. championing his position in the Tory ranks, it explains how he's able to exert influence. 

As to Bannon and Cummings, I agree - although I don't think it's just fractiousness causing it. It's that Bannon and Cummings (the latter in particular) blindsided them with tactics that only come with the realisation that nobody cares about the rules any more. They were able to outright lie and fight dirty, whilst the left still clung to the belief this campaign could still be fought clean. That's another reason why you get lefties looking down on the right - the right's demonstrated it doesn't care about being persuaded or informed any more, it just wants what it wants, putting the lie to every claim of propriety, democracy, legality, etc. that it's ever made. Maybe that's not a fair assessment, but that's exactly how it looks.

2 minutes ago, David said:

There isn't 19 odd million people out there physically attacking people though, is there? It's a relatively small minority. I'm not talking about trying to reconcile with them, that type are scumbags. I'm on about the rest of the majority who voted leave for various reasons. The pensioners, the working class types who don't abuse people on the streets.

But they're only the tip of the iceberg, aren't they? If they were a tiny minority by themselves, it'd be easy to deal with, but in the wake of Windrush, Grenfell, etc., it's hard not to think that we're seeing it happen all over again. The scum on the streets are being emboldened by the actions of those in power.

2 minutes ago, David said:

Exactly, which is why it's almost time to get the whiskey opened and get the Thistle game on the set.

Spelling crime aside, good man. I got some favourites over Christmas - Laphroaig 10 Year, Glenfairn Islay, and Glenfairn Speyside. Also got a nice mini of Jura, but am thinking of saving that for something celebratory - although when the fuck that will be, I don't know.

[David]

Just now, Carbomb said:

Spelling crime aside, good man.

It's my Proper No. 12 I'm opening tonight 😉