Paid Members Lion_of_the_Midlands Posted June 19, 2019 Paid Members Posted June 19, 2019 8 minutes ago, Devon Malcolm said: How many apron Germans are there? Safe as houses.
Paid Members Accident Prone Posted June 19, 2019 Paid Members Posted June 19, 2019 16 minutes ago, Devon Malcolm said: There are probably thousands of sunset flips performed in wrestling shows all over the world every week. How many apron Germans are there? I get the point you're trying to make, but in today's landscape I'd wager it's quite a regular occurrence. Hell, a quick YouTube search shows that Akira Tozawa did one on 205 Live very recently. Yet this appears to be a rare midfire that's got people talking. 11 minutes ago, Duke said: Surely, if all of those things get a reaction, doing one that is significantly more dangerous than the others is the wrong way? If you went to Nitro Circus, and it just consisted of bikers doing wheelies for an hour, wouldn't you feel ripped off? My point is it all depends on the audience. Your local AMERICAN STYLE PRO WRESTLING show at the working men's club down the road won't react well to the more innovative, dangerous-looking stuff nor will they really react to the wink-at-the-camera shenanigans of Orange Cassidy. Your internet-savvy HYBRID WRESTLING show featuring Johnny Kickpads and Mike 'Linkin Park theme song' Strongstyle probably won't react well to more character drive promos and stories. Variety and knowing the audience is key. Yes, some stuff is more dangerous than other methods but you have to go with what will make the audience at your show engage with what's going on.
Paid Members Supremo Posted June 19, 2019 Paid Members Posted June 19, 2019 23 minutes ago, Accident Prone said: And again, I stress the point; would this discussion even be happening if the spot went through as planned? It was an unfortunate fuck-up but I've seen botches from simple sunset flips that have been just as brutal. Would the same discussion be abound if that happened? Genuine question - what do you think the planned spot was that got fucked up?
Paid Members tiger_rick Posted June 19, 2019 Paid Members Posted June 19, 2019 1 hour ago, Devon Malcolm said: Wrestling existed for decades and did quite well without people dropping each other on their heads and risking their actual lives for a mid-match spot. In Japan? None of this is my bag but dropping each other on the back of their heads for a mid-match spot has been a staple for years.
Paid Members Accident Prone Posted June 19, 2019 Paid Members Posted June 19, 2019 8 minutes ago, Supremo said: Genuine question - what do you think the planned spot was that got fucked up? I'd say it was meant to be a plain old German Suplex on the apron, as shown in the GIFS I posted a few posts ago. That, or Ibushi was meant to flip and land on the floor with a front bump, or he was going to take it onto the floor Kobashi '03 style. Whatever way they wanted it to go, their positioning and/or execution was off and it resulted in what is probably the most talked about spot of the year.
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted June 19, 2019 Paid Members Posted June 19, 2019 13 minutes ago, tiger_rick said: In Japan? None of this is my bag but dropping each other on the back of their heads for a mid-match spot has been a staple for years. Yeah, but they've not been doing it since nineteen-naught-plonk, have they?
Paid Members tiger_rick Posted June 19, 2019 Paid Members Posted June 19, 2019 1 minute ago, Devon Malcolm said: Yeah, but they've not been doing it since nineteen-naught-plonk, have they? A good thirty years. It's almost a rite of passage. It's a strange place. Being stiff is fine but them lads have always been fucking mental. I'm not defending the spot but I don't get the sudden outcry considering what they have been doing to each other for decades.
Paid Members BomberPat Posted June 19, 2019 Paid Members Posted June 19, 2019 8 minutes ago, tiger_rick said: It's a strange place. Being stiff is fine but them lads have always been fucking mental. Some egregious namedropping here, but a wrestler I've worked with was talking to me about having worked with Misawa. They were in a house show tag, and apparently Misawa was furious at him for putting a headlock on too tight, and later in the match was throwing strikes that missed by a country mile. The thing with the whole "hard hitting, head dropping" Japanese style is that it's as much a work as everything else. They do it when it counts, on the big shows, with the most scrutiny, and the biggest audience, but 99% of the time work light as a feather. The problem is, with stuff like NJPW World, the distinction between major and minor shows isn't as cut and dry as it used to be, and shows that used to be performed just for the benefit of the live crowd are now reaching a global audience, so there's conceivably more pressure to go full-on more often than is good for them.
Paid Members tiger_rick Posted June 19, 2019 Paid Members Posted June 19, 2019 3 minutes ago, BomberPat said: Some egregious namedropping here, but a wrestler I've worked with was talking to me about having worked with Misawa. They were in a house show tag, and apparently Misawa was furious at him for putting a headlock on too tight, and later in the match was throwing strikes that missed by a country mile. The thing with the whole "hard hitting, head dropping" Japanese style is that it's as much a work as everything else. They do it when it counts, on the big shows, with the most scrutiny, and the biggest audience, but 99% of the time work light as a feather. Interesting take. Differs from every account I've ever read or heard though.
Awards Moderator HarmonicGenerator Posted June 19, 2019 Awards Moderator Posted June 19, 2019 1 hour ago, Accident Prone said: I get the point you're trying to make, but in today's landscape I'd wager it's quite a regular occurrence. Hell, a quick YouTube search shows that Akira Tozawa did one on 205 Live very recently. Yet this appears to be a rare midfire that's got people talking. I often watch 205 Live baffled when they're doing mad high-risk moves like that, even when they go right, because the crowds just don't care and they're not exactly setting the Network alight with views. A lot of risk for the reward of 'nobody will remember this by the end of the episode, let alone in a week or a month or in 30 years'. Maybe that move went wrong deliberately so that it got talked about more. I mean, the first time I heard of Misawa and Kawada was the legendary powerbomb that went wrong and got Misawa dropped on his head, and that was a good decade and change after it happened. We definitely wouldn't be discussing it if it had been pulled off without a hitch. It's all a work, even when it isn't.........
Paid Members Carbomb Posted June 19, 2019 Paid Members Posted June 19, 2019 The whole "Japanese wrestling is just no-selling and head-drops" thing is bollocks anyway. That's what US indy wrestlers took away from it, when they missed the point entirely, hence the ridiculousness of RoH and a host of other indies. Rikidozan didn't do head-drops, neither did Inoki - hell, Baba's most over moves were his Russian legsweep, and a big boot and a dropkick named after his kayfabed shoe size. Chono was one of the most over guys in NJPW, and he was more about heel character work with a relatively safe brawling and submission style. Osamu Nishimura got over using an abdominal stretch as his finish while wrestling a very safe style (although I know his style can be polarising - some find it boring, some find it fascinating). One of the most over and popularised moves of the late 90s/early 2000s was the Shining Wizard. Besides, it's stupid to refer to Japanese wrestling as a monolithic whole, same as it would be to refer to British or American wrestling the same way. NJPW's Strong Style was distinctively different from AJPW's King's Road, which in turn was different from NOAH's Ark Road which evolved from it, and the lucharesu styles of Michinoku Pro and Osaka Pro are quite distinctive from the sprints and llave of DragonGate. There's even K-Dojo, which, because of TAKA Michinoku's experiences and influence, is closer to the more character-driven styles of the US.
Pinc Posted June 19, 2019 Posted June 19, 2019 3 hours ago, Accident Prone said: An excellent example of a Strawman argument. No where do I state that I want people to die. I'm not sure you understand my post. And/or what a Strawman argument is.
Paid Members Accident Prone Posted June 19, 2019 Paid Members Posted June 19, 2019 19 minutes ago, Pinc said: I'm not sure you understand my post. And/or what a Strawman argument is. Fair enough. What I took from your post was you inferring that I was gung-ho on wrestlers incurring life-threatening injuries, which was then taken as you attacking a point of view that isn't my own (my general understanding of a 'Strawman'). Despite all the massively different opinions on this, I'm glad the discussion has remained quite civil and engaging. I've seen people on Twitter go after one another's throats over this.
Guest Posted June 19, 2019 Posted June 19, 2019 1 hour ago, Accident Prone said: Variety and knowing the audience is key. Yes, some stuff is more dangerous than other methods but you have to go with what will make the audience at your show engage with what's going on. That's a bit chicken and egg though, isn't it? Those people are desperate for the more dangerous stuff because that's what the wrestlers give them. Ibushi could definitely still get the crowd going without doing those spots. It's a long term disaster waiting to happen, isn't it? Doing more and more dangerous spots because that's what thst audience wants. It's all fine until someone gets internally decapitated. For the record, this is true of all of the stupid, decided in an adrenaline rush stuff, this is just the latest example.
Paid Members Supremo Posted June 19, 2019 Paid Members Posted June 19, 2019 Just to even things out after posting that Ibushi spot and declaring it the stupidest spot of the year, here’s my new favourite spot of the year. I’ve never actually seen a DDT show but it looks like the most fun ever.
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