Random Thoughts III.

[Supremo]

Agreed. Kota Ibushi might be the most talented wrestler on the planet (as well as being absolutely gorgeous!), but that bump at Dominion was way too much and I spent the rest of the match genuinely angry at both guys for even trying it. Completely took me out of the match and killed all enjoyment. For anyone who hasn’t seen it, here is the stupidest spot of the year. 

Idiots.

Edited June 18, 2019 by Supremo

[tiger_rick]

What were they going for? There looks to be enough room to do a suplex on the apron which would look devastating but be pretty safe. But they're nowhere near to hitting it right so were they genuinely going for a suplex onto the edge of the apron or even on to the floor?

[Accident Prone]

I feel the backlash this spot has gotten is a bit of an over-reaction. It's a spot gone wrong; Ibushi was clearly supposed to flip and take the bump on the mat. When you look at the details of the clip, both men under-estimate what is required to make it work. It's a freak accident and luckily Ibushi came out sporting a black eye from a headbutt later on. Going hell for leather on them over that seems pointless.

If this was done on purpose, or Ibushi was meant to spike himself on the apron instead, then I also applaud the bravery of pushing the boundaries of wrestling. It's a big match on a big show, they're going to up the ante and have a few unforgettable moments. No one is coming out of that thinking either Ibushi or Naito are lesser wrestlers doing that. No one thought lesser of Kobashi for doing similar spots, did they?

Remember when Ospreay had a similar accident last March? And every match he's had since then, he's teased the apron spot, leading to some utterly fantastic storytelling and moments. Ibushi and Naito will likely going the same route, getting tons of mileage out of it.

A the end of the day, if two consenting adults feel they are good enough to pull off something like that, then more power to them. It's not some shindy in front of 30 people, it's not some attention-grabbing deathmatch, it's two of the best wrestlers in the world going all out for the fans in attendance and around the world.

[Your Fight Site]

2 hours ago, Supremo said:

Agreed. Kota Ibushi might be the most talented wrestler on the planet (as well as being absolutely gorgeous!), but that bump at Dominion was way too much and I spent the rest of the match genuinely angry at both guys for even trying it. Completely took me out of the match and killed all enjoyment. For anyone who hasn’t seen it, here is the stupidest spot of the year. 

[Tweet]

Idiots.

Jesus Christ. How is Ibushi not in a wheelchair, or worse?

[BomberPat]

22 minutes ago, Accident Prone said:

It's not some attention-grabbing deathmatch

Honestly, I'd say this attitude isn't helpful. 

Because there's such a taboo, or an ingrained physical response, against blood loss or anything that penetrates the skin, most people would likely look at the barbed wire and light tubes of a "deathmatch" as worse than what Ibushi and Naito did. But the risk of injury from that Naito/Ibushi spot is far higher, and the severity of potential injury is far higher also - it's a real worst case scenario.

The point is less about two of the best wrestlers in the world pulling this off once in a one-off big match, it's about the escalation that comes as a result. When the audience are accustomed to a spot like that, it falls to wrestlers everywhere - not just on shows as big and well paying as a major NJPW show - to up the ante and try and meet, or even exceed, those expectations.

And it's not like this style is without its casualties. Shibata's lucky to be alive, Ibushi's neck is already fucked, and Ospreay's carrying a litany of injuries and prior concussions that are frankly terrifying for a lad barely over 25.

[Accident Prone]

30 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

Honestly, I'd say this attitude isn't helpful. 

Because there's such a taboo, or an ingrained physical response, against blood loss or anything that penetrates the skin, most people would likely look at the barbed wire and light tubes of a "deathmatch" as worse than what Ibushi and Naito did. But the risk of injury from that Naito/Ibushi spot is far higher, and the severity of potential injury is far higher also - it's a real worst case scenario.

As a deathmatch fan myself, I did myself no favours with my wording. I know there is far less in terms of severe and long-term injury in Deatmatches as compared to the style that Ibushi, Naito and Shibata work, I was just trying to put an exclamation to my point.

I stand by my opinion that most people are having a bit of an over-reaction to the spot. Would it be the same reaction if they pulled it off successfully? To me it comes across as people having a bit of a moan because they were forced to feel legit concern for somebody, but then didn't know how to get back into the swing of things afterwards.

If these guys want to work this style then I'm not going to complain, as it's a style that I really enjoy. They aren't being forced into it, they aren't working it into every single match and the schedule is there to help their bodies cope with the insanity.

Ibushi is a handsome hero. Incredibly handsome. Incredibly heroic. 

[Supremo]

It’s not as if this is a one off with Naito or Ibushi, either. They’re always doing spots where they unnecessarily land on their head and necks. I remember there was a suplex Naito took at that video game show Omega promoted last year that scared the shit out of me. Like he purposely tried to take it as dangerously as possible.

Ultimately, I just think both guys are way, way too talented and could have just as enjoyable matches without risking their  lives. I’ve never seen a single match from either guy where I’ve thought, “that bit where he nearly paralysed himself was the best bit.”

[MungoChutney]

I was watching an old BritWres DVD recently and saw a guy taking a vertabreaker (badly, it looked like shit) to absolutely no reaction. I was at a Brit Wres show just after this in a similar venue and saw a huge pop for a backdrop.

There is no need for moves like the one Ibushi took, even if done correctly and Pat is bang on that others will feel the need to deliver similar bumps for much less financial or career reward. Wrestling is about generating a reaction that makes people buy tickets, I'm not convinced apron bumps are effective in this regard but that backdrop might have been.

[Accident Prone]

32 minutes ago, MungoChutney said:

I was watching an old BritWres DVD recently and saw a guy taking a vertabreaker (badly, it looked like shit) to absolutely no reaction. I was at a Brit Wres show just after this in a similar venue and saw a huge pop for a backdrop.

There is no need for moves like the one Ibushi took, even if done correctly and Pat is bang on that others will feel the need to deliver similar bumps for much less financial or career reward. Wrestling is about generating a reaction that makes people buy tickets, I'm not convinced apron bumps are effective in this regard but that backdrop might have been.

As a fan, I don't watch a show and get enjoyment from how much money the company is making. I've never seen any merit in that argument, otherwise I'd be loving every second of Monday Night RAW.

If you think that Ibushi vs Naito won't do numbers and garner loads of interest in a rematch, then you're wrong.

Edited June 18, 2019 by Accident Prone

[Hannibal Scorch]

18 minutes ago, Accident Prone said:

As a fan, I don't watch a show and get enjoyment from how much money the company is making. I've never seen any merit in that argument, otherwise I'd be loving every second of Monday Night RAW.

If you think that Ibushi vs Naito won't do numbers and garner loads of interest in a rematch, then you're wrong.

What’s the point of breaking your body in front of 50 people? I mean you could ask Nigel McGuinness I suppose   

[MungoChutney]

I didn't say they wouldn't but I will say that bumps like that are unlikely to add a single ticket sale. That bump in itself has actually  garnered a very negative recation from what I've seen actually. 

Wrestlers need to be fit and healthy in order to perform so regardless of why fans choose to watch a product, safety should be the primary concern.

[Supremo]

On the Ibushi front you only have to look at someone like Will Ospreay. He stopped taking the really crazy stuff, started landing on his back rather than his head and neck, and absolutely no-one thinks less of him or his matches.

In fact, I’d argue he’s a better worker and having better matches now than he was twelve months ago. He’s probably the best wrestler in the world right now.

I can’t imagine anyone watching a single one of Will’s Super Junior matches and feeling like they were lacking a spot where he could kill himself.

[Accident Prone]

3 minutes ago, Hannibal Scorch said:

What’s the point of breaking your body in front of 50 people? I mean you could ask Nigel McGuinness I suppose   

You mean Nigel McGuiness who is signed by WWE? Nigel McGuiness who helped ROH sell venues and DVDs with those performances?

Also, have you seen either match in question? You clearly haven't if you're going for the silly old "50 people" argument. Even then, if there is 'only' 50 people in attendance, do they deserve any less of a show just because their numbers are small? They've paid for a ticket, they deserve your absolute best regardless of how many fans there are. 

5 minutes ago, MungoChutney said:

I didn't say they wouldn't but I will say that bumps like that are unlikely to add a single ticket sale. That bump in itself has actually  garnered a very negative recation from what I've seen actually. 

Wrestlers need to be fit and healthy in order to perform so regardless of why fans choose to watch a product, safety should be the primary concern.

Ibushi is apparently very disappointed with the reaction, especially considering that he's fine. He obviously thinks it was a swell idea that should've popped the crowd (and it did). Again, the post-match negative reaction wouldn't be this bad if the spot went off like it should've done. Everyone is up in arms over something that went wrong, it's ludicrous.

And I balk at the idea that nutty bumps don't sell tickets. I've been watching and attending wrestling shows for almost 15 years and I've seen attendances spike following some crazy spot that got traction.

5 minutes ago, Supremo said:

On the Ibushi front you only have to look at someone like Will Ospreay. He stopped taking the really crazy stuff, started landing on his back rather than his head and neck, and absolutely no-one thinks less of him or his matches.

In fact, I’d argue he’s a better worker and having better matches now than he was twelve months ago. He’s probably the best wrestler in the world right now.

I can’t imagine anyone watching a single one of Will’s Super Junior matches and feeling like they were lacking a spot where he could kill himself.

Can't argue on that front. All three points are bang on. I'd much prefer if Ibushi landed more safely but, at the end of the day, he feels like his body is strong enough to bump with a bit more...flourish, and I am there for every insane second.

[SuperBacon]

I like watching NJPW when I can, but in all honesty, I watch it through my fingers half the time. 

Landing on your neck/head is absolutely rank, and is only enjoyed by absolute marks for “strong style”.

 

[IANdrewDiceClay]

I cant relate, because I'm just a fan sitting there criticising, but there must be a buzz to do dangerous stunts for big cheers, though. They dont "need" to do them doesnt come into it. It must be quite thrilling.