Random thoughts thread v2 *NO NEWS ITEMS*

[jimufctna24]

I may be off base here as I do not follow wrestling much these days, but would it not matter more that Cena appeals to the TV viewer and the paying public (families who buy for their kids) more than just the super-hardcore fans who boo him in the arenas?

[PowerButchi]

So, with that being the case, is it fair to say that Cena just isn't a great Face then?

 

Probably not, no. His comebacks and selling are great. He showed how great a babyface he is in his bout vs Lesnar. Getting a rabidly anti-Cena crowd on his side is the sign of a tremendous babyface.

[LaGoosh]

I don't think any wrestling fans are jealous of Cena, the idea that anyone hates him because they are jealous is completely insane. The reason he's booed is because he's a fucking goon. He's just a massive nerd (and not in the unlikeable CM Punk nerdy way, but in a Barney the dinosaur way). He's never been cool and never will be. His act comes across as phony and it's just got more and more stale over the years.

Edited December 19, 2012 by LaGoosh

[Ronnie]

While I was a bit tongue in cheek there, to an extent there's probably some truth to it. Cena is the popular, muscular, handsome and successful man at the top. 90% of male wrestling fans are losers. Cena's everything they're not and never will be. I'd not be surprised if jealousy played a part.

That's exactly what Ronette says too. "They're just jealous because he's so good looking."

 

I don't think it's that at all. Rock is super successful, makes the girls wet, sports a Hollywood smile, has a wrestling style that could be picked apart in the same way as critics do Cena's, often has "JBL is poopy"-standard material ("popcorn fart") and yet has the males eating out of his hand. For some reason he comes across as cool with them, although notably didn't when he was introduced and didn't yet have the Rock persona. I think early Rock probably illustrates the problem Cena has: that male demographic doesn't like the idea of feeling someone forced down their throat to whom they feel no emotional attachment. As children we did with Hogan. We did with Hart and Michaels, himself presented as someone whom the ladies loved whilst we were getting nothing. Later on we did with Austin and Rock, because they were fresh, dynamic and edgy, improvements on what had come before as far as we're concerned. They seemed serious, in spite of Rocky's perpetual joking. Austin was always going to be violent and come across as wrestling updated to be appropriate for us as we aged; he wasn't into smiling and being kid friendly. If he lost, he was mad. It felt an improvement to us from what had come before, which was, to us, a product for children and evolved into a product for teens and adults.

 

Cena doesn't have that going for him with respect to us, the people who grew up on the WWF. We can't bond with him in the same way that we did with the predecessors because he doesn't make it seem less childlike than before (an important thing, since wrestling becomes appropriate for "us", even though it's still the same predetermined process) and, most importantly, because we're no longer kids. I think it comes down to nothing more than that, really. We can't feel the same affinity for Cena as we did before, and so he seems a poor substitute and we boo him because wrestling with him on top isn't as good to our minds as we remember it being. There's nothing inherently different about him; we boo him when he counters an opponent with a series of punches and launch a chant of "you can't wrestle", yet cheered whenever Austin did that exact same sequence. If Hogan arrived today that demographic would be booing him too, even though we by and large adored him 20-25 years ago, yet his matches finished with a no-sell, a series of punches, the athleticism of sticking his foot in the air whilst the opponent ran into it, and a simple leg drop. That sequence caused us to break out in cheers back then, whilst the contemporary equivalent of the internet fan hated him, for the same reasons as we have for not cheering Cena.

 

I struggle to get into Cena for the simple reason that I shouldn't really be watching wrestling in the first place, at least not if I'm going to compare it to how it used to be for me personally. It can't be the same for me as it was when I was a boy and a teen. I suspect that the same thing holds for most of our generation too, but they lack the self-awareness to realise that and so boo Cena because he's not Hogan, Hart, Michaels, Austin or Rock, ignoring the fact that they're no longer as they were either.

 

Sorry, that was only supposed to be a one-liner and devolved from there.

[PowerButchi]

See, I really like Cena because he comes off as being decent. I like decent people. He does what's right and all that jazz, and that's what I like from people on an interpersonal level. I don't like blowhard smelly whinging smartarse cunts like CM Punk, I like good people like John Cena.

[LaGoosh]

nevermind

Edited December 19, 2012 by LaGoosh

[King Pitcos]

Excellent post, Ronnie. I think this sums it up particularly well:

 

I struggle to get into Cena for the simple reason that I shouldn't really be watching wrestling in the first place, at least not if I'm going to compare it to how it used to be for me personally. It can't be the same for me as it was when I was a boy and a teen. I suspect that the same thing holds for most of our generation too, but they lack the self-awareness to realise that and so boo Cena because he's not Hogan, Hart, Michaels, Austin or Rock, ignoring the fact that they're no longer as they were either.

 

It is a pretty doomed position until you can replace the army of holdover fans from the Rock/Austin days with new ones. For as many people as boo Cena, nobody could name anyone that they genuinely think could outdo him as top babyface and draw millionadollas with 100% cheers in arenas. Orton gets unanimously positive reactions most nights, and nobody would even jokingly suggests he's a better man for the job than Cena. CM Punk: Top Babyface was a disaster, despite his act appealing directly to the people who boo Cena. Ryback and Sheamus already get their share of negative chants, which will surely only increase if and when they take on Cena's status. Even though Cena absolutely decimated Rock in all their confrontations in 2011-2012, most of us still see him as below Rock, because of how deeply wrestling hooked us in Rock's time. And in 2005, Cena really did seem like a watered-down substitute for Rock and Austin. He has shown he can stand with them and best them, but for the most part he can't hook us as adults like they could when we were kids.

 

Ultimately, a lot of the (vocal) wrestling audience that remains is made up of anti-fans, which itself is such a weird phenomenon that I'd love to see academics look into one day. A massive number of wrestling fans are addicted to it but haven't been able to stand it for a decade. There are berks paying seventy quid a ticket to boo John Cena whilst wearing John Cena replica belts that they've paid upwards of two hundred quid for. And someone is buying his gnomes and alarm clocks. "He's only on top because he sells t-shirts" is a popular statement by divs that is intended to cut Cena down, but does the opposite. He's only selling shitloads of t-shirts because shitloads of people like him enough to buy his t-shirts.

 

Going from sociopathic anti-heroes back to a more standard hero who doesn't mind smiling or talking to folks like they're humans was always going to lead to angry crowds when the audience that stuck around after the attitude era were the ones with most social problems. It's such a tricky thing. Our age group kind of grew up with wrestling's global boom, as you spoke about. It's easy enough to hook kids with cartoony superhero stuff. Then to entice teenagers with swearing and big-titted blondes. But as we hit twenty or so, what could wrestling really do to appeal to us? We perk up for some nostalgia or some tattooed nerd sharing our "wrestling's shit nowadays" misery on-camera but that's about it. And so for ten years we've stuck with it because we've got nothing better to do, but we've been frustrated because it can never really be for us again. We're the zombies in the mall.

 

'Course, I love John Cena, so none of that applies to me.

[Mr Butternut Squash]

I totally disagree with the person who said that Cena's believable. That's his biggest problem. It seemed like they were going to do something interesting with him on the back of the loss to the Rock. Look at AJ styles; I'm not saying he's anywhere near as talented as Cena on the mic but this is a guy that was getting accused of banging a crackhead and now has lost his final battle against his long time rival and is on a downward spiral with doubts and all that human stuff. Cena was put in yet another stupid storyline which portrayed him as a nerd and a dick at the same time (see the time when the mentally damaged AJ sought him out for comfort in the locker room and he hugged her and feigned concern before looking into the camera and rolling his eyes cos ewww women) Instead of adding little nuances to his character after the Rock loss it was all DERP DERP DERP as usual. He takes nothing seriously so it's hard to take him seriously.

 

I'm starting to like him less and less myself but it has nothing to do with him as a performer and more to do with the tedious shit WWE do with him. He's shown he can be great on the stick and is a very decent wrestler (the "you can't wrestle" chants are moronic and the reason why pro Cena people think the chaps who are sick of him are all smarky indie nerds or whatever). I guess he's just an example of the way top WWE babyfaces seem to be now. They've settled with the socially obnoxious jerk template borrowed from The Rock and Y2J. Seeing the Rock and Jericho being bullying homophobic/misogynistic/racist bellends was cool at the time cos it was something new but when Cena/Sheamus and now worst of all, The Miz, try to do the same shit it comes across a force and smarmy. That's why Ryback's felt so refreshing to me.

[Arch Stanton]

Ronnie and Pitcos pretty much smashing the nail on the head there. Most of the people on the UKFF that like him fall into that category of older fans that can enjoy their wrestling without taking it too seriously and are self aware enough to realise that we aren't necessarily the target audience anymore.

[Statto]

Summed up excellently and succinctly there Arch. I just don't get all the "but...but...but he's insulting our intelligence with his poor application of the the STF... and he's so cheesy...". It was all hokey shit when I started watching wrestling in 1990, and it's hokey shit now.

[PowerButchi]

It was all hokey shit when I started watching wrestling in 1990, and it's hokey shit now.

 

Probably the greatest and most truthful statement uttered on this board.

[Dave The Stoner]

Dean Ambrose and his little ticks are the most interesting thing I've seen in a long time. I reckon he'll go far that lad, don't know whether he's trying to be Heath Ledger or Brian Pillman, but I'm down with it.

[garynysmon]

See, I really like Cena because he comes off as being decent. I like decent people. He does what's right and all that jazz, and that's what I like from people on an interpersonal level. I don't like blowhard smelly whinging smartarse cunts like CM Punk, I like good people like John Cena.

 

I liked this one. Simple but to the point.

 

Admittedly i'm not a regular WWE viewer any more, but when I do tune in I just don't understand what's so likeable about CM Punk, and so dislikeable about John Cena.

 

CM Punk comes across as a twat, and not in a good 'heel' way. I think a lot of people are annoyed about all the kids in the audience at WWE events, but we were exactly the same at their age. What's so different now? I have a 6 year old nephew who loves John Cena, and I can relate to him to the same level as I loved Hulk Hogan at that age. Wrestling isn't as hot as it was back in our time, but there's an obvious reason for that.

 

Even in the attitude era, before the internet came into full swing, there was still a vast majority who did not have internet access and didn't know X-Pac was going to turn up on Raw for example. Now I can log onto Lords of Pain at work, and find out who's backstage at Raw etc. The mystique has well and truly gone, and that's why I don't think Wrestling will ever be like it was.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

Cena draws massive audiences to wrestling shows. People seem to over-analyze things in the case of people who are very successful. I remember the whole "Hogan scratches, bites and cheats he's a shit babyface" bollocks that used to be championed. Or the "Kurt Angle does to many near falls in his matches, so he's not a great worker". It all comes down to whether that works for the individual. If Daniel Bryan started to Hulk Up, that would be shit if he got no reaction and people laughed at him. If for some reason Zack Ryder hits his finisher, someone kicks out, hits his other finisher, someone kicks out and the end of the match he wins by hitting his finisher, then that would be terrible. Kurt Angle has done this in some of his most famous matches and it always gets over. The objective is always to present something the audience you are playing to will like. Kevin Steen's act has been seen before in wrestling, so that wouldn't get over if you put him on Raw or Smackdown, or even Impact. That audience has seen it all before. So does that make Kevin Steen shit? Or does that mean what he does is to get himself over in his own setting so he can stand out more? Cena does what the WWE audience wants him to be doing. The numbers prove that. If he gets booed by a bunch of people, yet is still the promotions biggest star at the box office, the people booing aren't voting with the credit cards are they?

 

Cena isn't my favourite wrestler to be fair. I like him, but I dont think he's as good a worker Hulk Hogan was in his prime. He's definitely a second category star. But there isn't anybody like him about, and I do admire him for that. People bitch about wrestlers from the 80s, but the likes of Hogan, Andre, Warrior and Savage were on the road most of the year and the big names were doing media appearances on their day off. Cena carries this company. Who else would do that in 2012? Workers from the generation before the current one like RVD, Jericho, Booker T, Brock Lesnar, Kurt Angle, Jeff Hardy, Lita, Trish and the like did 4 days a week and they fucked off burnt out. Cena is still going and his schedule is comparable to the Bret, Diesel era, where business was occasionally shit for a lot of the year, so you couldn't get by sending the Jake Roberts level stars to the children's hospitals and charity events. Even Bret, Shawn, Diesel and Undertaker ended up fucking off for months on end or just leaving all together. Few are built for it. How you cant admire him for what he does for wrestling is beyond me. Who else could do what he does? CM Punk couldn't do it. He's banged up as it is, and if he turned up to cut a ribbon on a cancer hospital, you think he wandered out of the bed. The jury is still out on Ryback. You might as well paint The Miz black and call him Daffy Duck. His appeal only goes so far. Sheamus is probably the most equipped. You can see why Sheamus is in line to be the best miz-an. But Sheamus gets booed as well you say? Well pops don't equal heat. Who cares.

Edited December 19, 2012 by IANdrewDiceClay

[Mr Butternut Squash]

See, I really like Cena because he comes off as being decent. I like decent people. He does what's right and all that jazz, and that's what I like from people on an interpersonal level. I don't like blowhard smelly whinging smartarse cunts like CM Punk, I like good people like John Cena.

 

CM punk comes across as a twat there's no denying that and his face run was terrible. But at least when he talked shit to the heels it was for the crap that they do not for what they looked like. It's been a while since his run so I might not be completely accurate with that. The point is Cena's only 'decent' when he chooses. For me, Bret is a good example of a guy that was a decent and believable person.