NXT - Post NXT Takeover discussion in progress

[Statto]

I can totally see Black & Dream being whacky mismatched tag champs. And I think I’d love it.

[bigfoote]

Maybe not tag champs, but I'd like to see something involving them two down the road, maybe "unspoken respect" meaning one saves the other. In mainstream WWE it would be hokey and contrived, but NXT has shown they can build something more subtle, as their match and the post-match promo showed.

[Onyx2]

23 hours ago, Supremo said:

In a two and a half hour show, how much time do you think Percy Watson spends actually speaking? Cumulatively, I think it’s about four minutes. I never ever hear him!

Apart from after Almas hit the top rope DDT and Pointless Percy exclaims, "we have a new champion!" which is just a huge commentating no-no when that's what is definitely about to happen. 

They need to fire him into the sun, but they won't, because they are currently wedded to 3 man commentary teams and must be racially sensitive regardless of ability. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Onyx2 said:

Apart from after Almas hit the top rope DDT and Pointless Percy exclaims, "we have a new champion!" which is just a huge commentating no-no when that's what is definitely about to happen.

Hold on, don't people always complain about Michael Cole shouting this because then you definitely know there's a kick-out coming?

[BomberPat]

Didn't think much of Wargames. Not a fan of removing the roof - the cage is considerably taller than the old WCW one, so it wouldn't have been a safety concern, I assume they removed it in order to protect the Hell in a Cell gimmick. The timed entrances were handled horribly - having the entire team enter, rather than one at a time, is just denying yourself opportunities for storytelling and audience reactions, so the whole "numbers advantage" aspect of War Games only really played it into briefly. Still, at least they're getting their money's worth out of that job lot of shark cages they bought, and at least someone had the foresight to think up the "if you leave the cage, you forfeit the match" rule.

Similarly, I don't think they made nearly enough use of the second ring - given how every Takeover seems to give us at least one bonkers innovative high spot, I thought someone in there would come up with something really genuinely breathtaking that relied on the two rings, but I don't remember anything half as good as Road Warrior Hawk launching himself across them both.

There were some fun bits, but it was the definition of a spotfest - Wargames, at its best, always felt like a fight, and always felt gritty and a bit dirty. This was a big old mess of movez, and very little else. My two personal highlights were Killian Dain responding to a "we want tables" chant by shrugging and going and getting some tables, and Adam Cole celebrating not having been powerbombed by Authors of Pain.

Speaking of Adam Cole, still not getting it. I see more upside in Fish & O'Reilly as a team, as they can fill a void left by the Revival getting called up, DIY breaking up, and TM61 not having been around, in terms of move-fest little guys, but absolutely nothing about Adam Cole is standing out for me, and never has. Never really followed his career before NXT, saw him live once and didn't think much of him, and now he's in NXT, he just looks like an indie guy playing at being Shawn Michaels, nothing stands out about him at all. He's also the typical NXT Indie Star, in that we're just expected to give a shit, without being given any reason to. I've said this since he debuted, but it was in full effect last night - Mauro Ranallo asked Nigel McGuiness, "what makes Adam Cole so successful?". Hang on, is he successful? What's he done? He's only won one match since he got here! They keep telling us that Adam Cole is a big deal, and expecting that to be enough, rather than showing us why we should think Adam Cole is a big deal. And of all the guys who have come through NXT and had to take on a new name, Bobby fucking Fish gets to keep his. No justice in the world. And what sort of a name is The Undisputed Era? What's "Undisputed" about them? How are they an Era? I'd dispute that.

Speaking of indie blokes, when the closest thing Roderick Strong has to a gimmick is "Roddy Against The World", who thought it would be a good idea to have him play dress-up with his new mates?

 

Enough gripes - rest of the show was great, and Wargames was at least enjoyable in parts, it just gave me nothing memorable. I can only echo everyone else's love for Velveteen Dream vs. Aleister Black - genuinely staggered to find out Dream is only 22, the lad's a natural. It's just solid logical booking, too - you take two strongly defined characters, and ask "how would these two interact?", even without the nod to them in Dream's ring attire, it made me think of Rick Rude vs. Jake Roberts; just take two guys that couldn't be less alike, but both known for their psychology/mind games in completely different ways, and see what happens. The sort of character work that, in most performers, would have felt like a forced highlight reel "moment" just all came so naturally in this match.

Okay, one last gripe - as great as the Women's Title match was, I don't think Ember Moon was the right call to win it. She's the one in that match with the most high profile loss to Asuka on her record, so it just makes it look like she wasn't good enough to beat Asuka, and had to wait until she was gone before she could win the belt, and that makes her look weaker than if she'd not won at all. Kairi Sane could have won with no ill effect, having not faced Asuka before (though maybe they were reluctant to go with another Japanese champion, lest she get seen as a poor man's Asuka), Nikki Cross could have won - having her big loss to Asuka come through a big high spot means she's a little more protected in that respect that Ember - or Peyton Royce could have cheated to win it. Ember just seems like the weakest option for me, under those circumstances.

[Onyx2]

20 minutes ago, Uncle Zeb said:

Hold on, don't people always complain about Michael Cole shouting this because then you definitely know there's a kick-out coming?

Yes. But at least that's the direct opposite!

I could do with "we have a new champion!" being a banned phrase until the bell rings.

[WeeAl]

Velveteen Dream vs Black was fantastic. I wasn't sure what to expect as I wasn't dying about Black's last Takeover match, and I hadn't seen anything of Dream before. In the end, it blew me away. Great stuff. I can't get over Velveteen being 22. Astounding how great he looked here with such little experience, and how far he could go if they nurture him.

Almas vs McIntyre was the second best match of the night, with what was to me, a surprise title change. I feel for Drew with that injury, that immediately looked like a biceps tear considering it immediately started to roll up his arm. He could be out a good while now.

The main event was strange. On one hand, it ended up turning into an exciting stunt show. On the other hand, it was full of people I don't care about, it didn't feel like a 'fight' like War Games should, and the heat for the first half of the match was non-existent due to the rule changes. 

I don't see a very high ceiling for any of these guys on the main roster. Possibly only the AOP, but in the tag division their profile is only going to be of a certain level. As for Cole, Fish, O'Reilly and Strong - I don't get it at all. 

The commentary in NXT is shockingly bad too. Ranallo, McGuinness and Percy Watson could be the worst commentary team of all time. Although there have been a fair few bad teams recently to give them a run for their money on that front. 

A fun show overall though, with the standout performances from Dream, Black, Lars Sullivan, Killian Dain and Almas. 

 

[dopper]

19 hours ago, WeeAl said:

I don't see a very high ceiling for any of these guys on the main roster. Possibly only the AOP, but in the tag division their profile is only going to be of a certain level. 

Funnily enough I had exactly the same thought.

As much as I enjoyed the show overall and continue to enjoy the weekly TV, I feel there is nobody on the current NXT roster who is good enough to add something to that Raw or SD roster. AOP are the only ones as they could have very good matches with a number of the current Raw/SD teams.

Compare that with 2 years ago and we were all excited at the prospect of seeing how big an impact Balor, Zayn, Bayley, Asuka, Revival, American Alpha, and others would have when they finally got the call.

[Wrasslin]

Wow it amazes me that after this week anyone could think Black and Velveteen Dream wouldn't add anything to the main roster.

[dopper]

They had a fantastic match on Saturday, undoubtably one of the best of the year.

But based on how they have handled a charismatic but silent super-athlete like Finn Balor or a flamboyant, campy character like Tyler Breeze (both of whom were equally as popular with the NXT audiences as Black & Dream) , how far up the ranks do you see them getting on Raw or Smackdown?

[seph]

46 minutes ago, dopper said:

They had a fantastic match on Saturday, undoubtably one of the best of the year.

But based on how they have handled a charismatic but silent super-athlete like Finn Balor or a flamboyant, campy character like Tyler Breeze (both of whom were equally as popular with the NXT audiences as Black & Dream) , how far up the ranks do you see them getting on Raw or Smackdown?

Hear me out for a sec, but the problem with Black is that on the main roster they already have a character that dabbled with "dark forces" and turned him into a clown with big losses at the wrong time. Black is an absolute badass that can function as such with the compressed time that main TV allows, but if you have the mystique bled out and watered down by the wrong people we'll have just another guy.

Dream has more promise, there hasn't been a certified woman-eater on the roster in years that hasn't been turned into a goofball. As the athlete men want to be and women want to be with there are several flirtations with face-turns to be had (Miz? Rusev? Jimmy Uso?) against him and some potential showstealers to boot.

[Ambulance Chaser]

2 hours ago, dopper said:

 Tyler Breeze

Dream is a lot bigger.

And Black.

Vince has got Standards and practice's on his back, if he don't make it on the main shows he will be a commentator or ring announcer.

[Tim R-T-C]

On 11/20/2017 at 10:34 AM, BomberPat said:

Okay, one last gripe - as great as the Women's Title match was, I don't think Ember Moon was the right call to win it. She's the one in that match with the most high profile loss to Asuka on her record, so it just makes it look like she wasn't good enough to beat Asuka, and had to wait until she was gone before she could win the belt, and that makes her look weaker than if she'd not won at all. Kairi Sane could have won with no ill effect, having not faced Asuka before (though maybe they were reluctant to go with another Japanese champion, lest she get seen as a poor man's Asuka), Nikki Cross could have won - having her big loss to Asuka come through a big high spot means she's a little more protected in that respect that Ember - or Peyton Royce could have cheated to win it. Ember just seems like the weakest option for me, under those circumstances.

My big concern with Moon winning it, is that we have another 'unbeatable' champion, so it is going to be the same as Asuka's reign for another long time.

If Royce or Cross had won it (by underhanded means), we could have had a sneaky heel champion, helped by their team/partner, to add some variation for a while, before Moon or Sane finally take it come the Mania weekend.

[seph]

23 minutes ago, Tim R-T-C said:

My big concern with Moon winning it, is that we have another 'unbeatable' champion, so it is going to be the same as Asuka's reign for another long time.

If Royce or Cross had won it (by underhanded means), we could have had a sneaky heel champion, helped by their team/partner, to add some variation for a while, before Moon or Sane finally take it come the Mania weekend.

Cross is out because at the critical time you'd have to involve Sanity vs whoever her opponent could find to even things, that's the kind of distraction the women's div can do without right now.

Edited November 21, 2017 by seph

[King Pitcos]

10 hours ago, seph said:

Hear me out for a sec, but the problem with Black is that on the main roster they already have a character that dabbled with "dark forces" and turned him into a clown with big losses at the wrong time. Black is an absolute badass that can function as such with the compressed time that main TV allows, but if you have the mystique bled out and watered down by the wrong people we'll have just another guy.

Main roster TV time isn't compressed enough, it's easier to come by than NXT screen time. That's one of the problems with new acts, they're out there for 15 minutes a week and they're overexposed by their second month in.