Shinjiro Otani seriously injured during a match

[Merzbow]

Horrible news, he took a german suplex to the turnbuckle during a match for ZERO1 and didn't get up after it and saying that he couldn't move his extremities.

I don't want to seem like Cornette but are these moves in to the corner in any way worth it? I really don't see them as adding much to a match.

[air_raid]

They absolutely aren’t. The escalation of stuff being done between the ropes not being a big enough deal, through superplexes and the ilk, to the point where into the buckles and on the apron being transitional spots is fairly normal, is part of the reason we have bullshit falls through ladders and Big E in hospital for taking a silly bump on the floor.

[Love-Wilcox]

I'm not entirely against dangerous stuff in wrestling but it really does need to be kept to a minimum and I especially hate to see these spots done by guys swiftly approaching 50 who already have a near enough maxed out bump card. We all had a giggle at Jericho throwing himself into cardboard boxes but at least he's got his head screwed on as far as his own safety is concerned.

My heart goes out to Otani and his family.

[patiirc]

49 minutes ago, Merzbow said:

Horrible news, he took a german suplex to the turnbuckle during a match for ZERO1 and didn't get up after it and saying that he couldn't move his extremities.

I don't want to seem like Cornette but are these moves in to the corner in any way worth it? I really don't see them as adding much to a match.

That's sad news, ring injuries and deaths on turnbuckles are the reason why Boxing largely has those strips in the corner, brought in many moons ago to prevent situations exactly like this. 

Adds nothing like the really stupid apron stuff that's de rigeur at the moment. 

[Tommy!]

3 hours ago, Love-Wilcox said:

I'm not entirely against dangerous stuff in wrestling but it really does need to be kept to a minimum

For two reasons I'd agree, first if crazy shit or big risk moments are used sparingly it means more when they are used and secondly if higher risk stuff becomes the norm it's excessive risk for people in the ring for no real payoff. 

[Jesse]

3 hours ago, patiirc said:

ring injuries and deaths on turnbuckles are the reason why Boxing largely has those strips in the corner, brought in many moons ago to prevent situations exactly like this.

Zero 1 has the same strips iirc, not that it helps when you're being german'd into them on your head.

As for moves into the buckle, it's all down to how they're done - I haven't seen this (and have no desire to) but I can't think of a way to take a german suplex into the buckle that gives you much control over how you land, whereas 'buckle bombs' and the like can largely be taken safely across the upper back and even landing on your feet and still look good. For me that's the dangerous stuff that should be cut out, where you're basically crossing your fingers that it goes well rather than being in control throughout.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Jesse
Can't type so good.

[Devon Malcolm]

I hope he's alright and everything but if you're agreeing to take a German suplex to the turnbuckles then you're taking your life in your own hands, surely. What an idiot.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Devon Malcolm

[garynysmon]

To be honest, even in the late 90s and early 2000's I hated the way a variety of suplexes became the norm in every match, as I generally wince at moves where there's a lot of impact on the neck.

I suppose the Steiners were a part of it but the likes of Benoit and Taz seemed to carry it over to the WWF and its remained the case ever since.

Imo, they're a bit like tope's and wrestlers standing around waiting to catch someone diving from the top rope. These moves often aren't as impressive looking to your average punter as they may be for a wrestler. I reckon there are often substitute moves that would be much safer to do without ditracting much, if anything, from the match.

[DCW]

The proliferation of german suplexes by Benoit and Angle (mainly) in the early 00's definitely shortened the careers of Austin, Edge as well as Angle and Benoit themselves. All had that neck fusion surgery over a short period of years

I'd have banned them over the pile-driver any day. They don't even look that impressive like. Eddie's 3 vertical suplexes were 10 times better looking and safer. 

All the buckle stuff looks shite to me, Seth injuring Balor and Sting with it should have been enough to call time on using it in any way. 

[Sphinx]

I could see how the bridging Germans would fuck your neck up, or if you land on your neck from them, but a lot of those Germans looked basically like back bumps for the one taking. I'm guessing if your necks already dodgy then it affects it more anyway.

[wandshogun09]

Sad to read this. Otani was one of my favourites in the New Japan on Eurosport days in the early to mid 90s. Had no impressive look at all with his skinny body, little black pants and no knee pads but he quickly got my attention. Later on when I started getting Japanese tapes online I loved his matches with Jushin Liger, Ultimo Dragon and Chris Benoit and I always enjoyed when he’d pop up in WCW from time to time.

Even years later when I’d occasionally see him older and all chubby on NOAH on TWC, he was still a lot of fun to watch.

But yeah, like Devon said, taking shit into the corner like that is just stupid. I stopped watching regularly by the time that and the apron bumps became a thing but I’ve never understood it. They’re dangerous and they look like shite. I didn’t even know Otani was still wrestling, taking those silly turnbuckle bumps is stupid at any age, at 49 it’s even more mind boggling. You’d hope this’ll be a lesson to everyone to stop doing it but you know it’ll be the same old shit in a few months. Was there any scaling back at all on the head drop suplexes after Misawa died? 

[BomberPat]

9 hours ago, DCW said:

The proliferation of german suplexes by Benoit and Angle (mainly) in the early 00's definitely shortened the careers of Austin, Edge as well as Angle and Benoit themselves. All had that neck fusion surgery over a short period of years

I'd have banned them over the pile-driver any day. They don't even look that impressive like. Eddie's 3 vertical suplexes were 10 times better looking and safer. 

All the buckle stuff looks shite to me, Seth injuring Balor and Sting with it should have been enough to call time on using it in any way. 

We're only a couple of weeks removed from William Regal having revealed that he broke his neck delivering a german suplex back in the early '90s. One of the first things I thought when Big E broke his neck was that, back in the mid-00s, that specific overhead belly-to-belly suplex was banned in WWE because of the spate of neck injuries, yet fast-forward to 2022 and they're hitting it on the outside.

It's difficult to say "this stuff is dangerous and should be definitely banned", because this is a freak accident on a spot that's probably done a million times without incident. However, when it comes to stuff into the corners, you're taking away the ability of both the giver and receiver of the move to fully control the bump, and as soon as you add that degree of unpredictability into proceedings, you're playing with fire. Especially when the man taking it is pushing 50 and likely banged up as hell already.

[air_raid]

Doing Snake Eyes should be the extent of the turnbuckles in play. I'm shocked nobody ever got fubar'd off the Generico brainbuster on the top buckle even with the control element.

They used to sell jumping off the top rope for a double axe-handle as a "high risk move," its shambolic the amount of stuff that happens these days without anyone batting an eyelid, to the point where its the ACTUALLY dangerous stuff, not just storyline dangerous, that's become part and parcel of the average match. It was so gradual nobody noticed. My two favourite matches of all time, one involves two guys that had the big neck injury (one being Benoit), and the other featured a Tiger Suplex from the ramp to the floor on Musawa, who ended up dying in the ring from cumulative effective of being dropped on his head/neck for decades, so I'm as much to blame as any fan.

Mind you, the "storyline dangerous" stuff could do with being dialled back too, to try and reduce the need for the ante to constantly be upped. When "normal bloke wrestlers" started being allowed to kick out of the Tombstone for the sake of drama (e.g. not a cartoon like Hogan/Warrior or another "supernatural" like Kane) then we lost something, and when HBK survived one on the floor at Mania 26 without having to do a stretcher job, it crossed over into ridiculous.

[Your Fight Site]

I feel pro wrestling has also gone from being storyline-driven to “movez”. People these days don’t really seem to care why wrestlers are fighting each other; they just want to see a move-fest. And maybe it’s because some wrestlers themselves have forgotten (or didn’t learn) what it’s all about. The amount of Twitter posts where wrestlers say “Give me [recently-released WWE superstar]!” or “Here’s my list of people I want to do a wrestle with” is cringeworthy.

No one went into a Hulk Hogan match expecting a clinic (unless he was wrestling in Japan of course). The stories drew people in and a wrestling match was just a part of and continuation of that story.

Edited April 11, 2022 by Your Fight Site

[kieranjennings]

Wrestling used to be real life superheroes and villains battling but now it's become more of a computer game come to life where it's all about moves/impact etc and the psychology that links them together (or determines what happens next) doesn't really matter. It's a shame as the best matches now are still the ones that have a clear story.