Paid Members BomberPat Posted May 7, 2021 Paid Members Share Posted May 7, 2021 I think you're probably right, but I think it's Labour's best chance. I don't think it'll be a return to anything close to the politics of Corbyn, but it'll be a damn sight more successful than Starmer - and if we're talking "electability", that's important. I've just seen a tweet from Lord Adonis saying that Starmer should be a "transitional" leader to make way for someone else, and in reality that's exactly what Corbyn should have been - a chance to reconfigure the party direction, come up with a solid manifesto, and then hand the reins over to a more competent leader. But he was never allowed the luxury of being seen as "transitional"; his failures had to represent the failure of his entire political platform. So I'm not confident that we'll see Labour get back to a genuinely left-wing position within the next decade, but I think there are certainly better options to lead the party into the next GE than Starmer, and that Burnham is a frontrunner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Chris B Posted May 7, 2021 Paid Members Share Posted May 7, 2021 One thing I keep going back to when I think about Labour is the influx of new members they got in 2015. The leadership election really engaged and invigorated people, and they got an enormous amount of new members (many of which were Corbyn supporters, obviously). They then saw that influx of new members as a problem to be solved rather than something to be celebrated. No matter what the tories thought of the people joining, if they got an influx of membership like that, they'd be too busy wanking themselves happily to death to complain. The (very slim) silver lining for Labour is this - it's much, much better to find out that they're not winning people over now than in the next general election. And, despite how poorly the Tories have handled a lot of the pandemic, they've also been paying 80% of a lot of people's wages. And they'll soon lose the pandemic as an excuse to why Brexit isn't unicorns and free beer. I don't know if Starmer's the right guy, but I'm not convinced he's the wrong guy. This is a time to reflect and course-correct. Labour either needs to widen their net, or realise they can't win alone and start working with other parties rather than acting the big 'I am'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Dead Mike Posted May 7, 2021 Paid Members Share Posted May 7, 2021 29 minutes ago, Chris B said: One thing I keep going back to when I think about Labour is the influx of new members they got in 2015. The leadership election really engaged and invigorated people, and they got an enormous amount of new members (many of which were Corbyn supporters, obviously). They then saw that influx of new members as a problem to be solved rather than something to be celebrated. No matter what the tories thought of the people joining, if they got an influx of membership like that, they'd be too busy wanking themselves happily to death to complain. The problem here is that membership bears no relation to votes. The Tory membership is literally dying off & they're one cold snap away from being able to hold their Manchester conference upstairs at the Britons Protection. The Tories have been able to attract new voters, the Ladbible/football lads not through offering them anything but by giving them something to rally against. It's depressing to me to constantly hear 'Labour have lost their working class roots' but how often does it have to be said before its addressed? I was listening to a comedy podcast (TVI) that strayed into politics & they mentioned something I'd not heard before, that right wing politics is simply more inclusive. You don't get Tories saying to other Tory voters 'You don't support the death penalty? Well fuck off to the Lib Dems then'. They're largely united against a common opposition and will argue about the finer policy points whilst in power. Its always easier to get people to rally against something than for something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Chris B Posted May 7, 2021 Paid Members Share Posted May 7, 2021 10 minutes ago, Dead Mike said: I was listening to a comedy podcast (TVI) that strayed into politics & they mentioned something I'd not heard before, that right wing politics is simply more inclusive. You don't get Tories saying to other Tory voters 'You don't support the death penalty? Well fuck off to the Lib Dems then'. They're largely united against a common opposition and will argue about the finer policy points whilst in power. Its always easier to get people to rally against something than for something. Absolutely this. On top of that, Johnson's moral flexibility means that he can easily claim to be on anyone's side, no matter what their side is. At the very least, he can claim to be against whatever they're against. It's one of the reasons he's always been such a successful candidate - he has no real beliefs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted May 7, 2021 Paid Members Share Posted May 7, 2021 Loudly and aggressively opposing the Tories actually works. How about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted May 7, 2021 Paid Members Share Posted May 7, 2021 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Dead Mike said: I was listening to a comedy podcast (TVI) that strayed into politics & they mentioned something I'd not heard before, that right wing politics is simply more inclusive. You don't get Tories saying to other Tory voters 'You don't support the death penalty? Well fuck off to the Lib Dems then'. They're largely united against a common opposition and will argue about the finer policy points whilst in power. Its always easier to get people to rally against something than for something. This is something I've been saying for a while, although I tended to use the word "united" rather than "inclusive". The right have a general idea of major things they will unite on, i.e. free market economics, authoritarian approach to crime, patriotism. Consequently, up to a point, people like Nadine Dorries, who'd have been in the Republican party in the US, could be in the same party as Kenneth Clarke, who'd have probably been in the Democrats. Unlike the left, they don't fragment on the slightest point of principle. That said, the fragmenting of the Labour party isn't down to a minor point of principle. I personally have come very close to not voting Labour because I don't see how I can align myself with a group of people who actually consider people like me a bigger threat than the Tories, and would rather keep them in than let a moderately left-wing politician become PM. We had to play it Blair's way for years, and the moment someone comes along who might be in line with what we actually believe in, they couldn't do the same? This tells me they're politically not on the same page as me, barely in the same fucking book, so after a point, there's only going to be so far that I will unite with them against the Tories. Edited May 7, 2021 by Carbomb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted May 7, 2021 Paid Members Share Posted May 7, 2021 Keir Starmer was elected to the Labour leadership under the banner of apparently being more electable than Jeremy Corbyn, and within one by-election the Tories tore down that banner and wiped their arses with it. It's an absolute humiliation. At least everyone knew where Labour stood under Blair. Starmer's similar brand of centrism and populism was never going to work because he's so demonstrably bland and absolutely nobody cares about him. He's energised a few old Blairites but as soon as he kicked Rebecca Long-Bailey off the front bench for absolutely nothing, he immediately cut off the groundswell of youth support that Corbyn had built up, and people like myself who had never cared about politics until I heard Corbyn speak. Labour is utterly rudderless. The only hope for this miserable country is that the union falls to pieces and parties like NIP can inspire regional devolution. Which will never happen because it's England - and even if it did, it would take decades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fog Dude Posted May 7, 2021 Share Posted May 7, 2021 Decentralisation within England is an interesting one. The Greater London Authority was meant to be only the start of it. A North East Assembly was nipped in the bud by a populist referendum campaign back in 2004 and the idea hasn't been revived since. (Incidentally, it was the first real political success for Dominic Cummings. That and the AV poll basically proved how easy it was to get people to vote against their own interests with false equivalence posters and slogans that appeal to emotion and ignorance.) The devolution offer was piss-weak, mind. It was basically John Prescott's pet project and the rest of the New Labour frontbench were indifferent to it at best. They were planning votes in the North West and Yorkshire as well but then got cold feet. Perhaps if the concept had got off the ground, it'd have made its way to forgotten provincial areas like the Westcountry and East Anglia as well. Now we have a patchwork of combined authority 'mayors' instead, who aren't as powerful or – Andy Burnham aside – nationally well known as regional First Ministers would've been. I notice the BBC is still grouping the English councils by those same 'Euroregions' in its local election coverage today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted May 7, 2021 Paid Members Share Posted May 7, 2021 I'd like to see the UK become a de-centralised, federal republic, for sure. Scotland, Wales, and Englands Northern, South-West, and South-East, and (if they're still around by that point) NI. Sadly won't happen in my lifetime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members JNLister Posted May 7, 2021 Paid Members Share Posted May 7, 2021 A woman has won a council by-election near me despite her Twitter handle being @Elizabe46045399. Literally not even got the imagination to avoid looking like a Russian bot and she still got in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members JNLister Posted May 7, 2021 Paid Members Share Posted May 7, 2021 (edited) 8 minutes ago, johnnyboy said: The Conservative candidate for mayor in Liverpool has reportedly lost their deposit too. Not only that, she lost to the Liberals. Not the Liberal Democrats. The Liberal Party. Edit: And don't overlook that the former Labour mayor Joe Anderson quit in disgrace after being charged with bribery and witness intimidation and has now been replaced by, erm, Labour's Joanne Anderson. Edited May 7, 2021 by JNLister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Lorne Malvo Posted May 7, 2021 Paid Members Share Posted May 7, 2021 BBC News at 6 then was the most ridiculously pro-Tory it's ever been. Almost a propaganda machine for the Conservatives. Laura Kuenssberg could barely contain her glee at the results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted May 8, 2021 Share Posted May 8, 2021 My sources are telling me that Starmer is taking full responsibility for the results by sacking Angela Rayner as party chair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBacon Posted May 8, 2021 Share Posted May 8, 2021 So it was Angela Rayner AND Covid's fault? I see. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/08/covid-restricted-keir-starmer-from-setting-out-vision-for-uk-says-labour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The King Of Swing Posted May 8, 2021 Share Posted May 8, 2021 26 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said: My sources are telling me that Starmer is taking full responsibility for the results by sacking Angela Rayner as party chair. He's a Tory plant isn't he? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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