Wrestling #MeToo #SpeakingOut

[Michael_3165]

50 minutes ago, AndiRush said:

I think the Association/Governing Body gimmick is 50/50 in the sense of half want a genuine thing to succeed and the other half just want power and control. The one problem all 100% of attempts fail to understand is that it's quite a big responsibility to be 'the' association of a national industry. If things go wrong under your watch, you're held accountable for not enforcing or issuing guidance/rules etc. 

It's also if they issue wrong advice. I wouldn't attempt to approach stuff like safeguarding standards etc w a mile long barge pole, it's a minefield. Esp with under 16s.

Unless you are very confident, legally I think this is on rocky ground. It's not a bit of fun when it comes to governance/being the association that represents thhe industry. It's why when stuff goes tits up the governing bodies normally cop it. As much as I appreciate what they are trying to do, it comes w huge risks if we get (amongst other things) childhood exploitation. Which in this industry wouldnt be all surprising. 

 

Aaa someone else said, the problem is its the industry policing itself. We have seen in all industries that this normally leads to turning a blind eye even with the best intentions. 

Good luck to them I say. Much more noble hill than I'd be willing to die on. 

Edited September 29, 2020 by Michael_3165

[MPDTT]

https://heelbynature.com/wrestling-news/joey-ryan-files-multi-million-dollar-lawsuit-against-speaking-out-accusers/

I don't think this has been reported elsewhere - but it seems Joey Ryan is going on the offensive. 

[Snitsky's back acne]

5 minutes ago, MPDTT said:

https://heelbynature.com/wrestling-news/joey-ryan-files-multi-million-dollar-lawsuit-against-speaking-out-accusers/

I don't think this has been reported elsewhere - but it seems Joey Ryan is going on the offensive. 

Courtesy of Twitter.

Joey Ryan when he finds out the reason why his case has been thrown out of court.

[MPDTT]

1 minute ago, Snitsky's back acne said:

Courtesy of Twitter.

Joey Ryan when he finds out the reason why his case has been thrown out of court.

I actually wondered how long it would take for defamation lawsuits to start to surface. I believe many will follow and I do hope those who made the accusations are able to provide evidence to substantiate their claims - or this could get extremely ugly. Every accuser in such a scenario should never be dismissed and their accusations treated as genuine, but if allegations can't be substantiated, particularly in such a litigious society like the US, then I worry women doing the right thing could fall foul of defamation law. 

Anyone on the forum with decent knowledge of defamation law and what is required for a reasonable defence on both sides of the Atlantic?

[AndiRush]

27 minutes ago, Michael_3165 said:

It's also if they issue wrong advice. I wouldn't attempt to approach stuff like safeguarding standards etc w a mile long barge pole, it's a minefield. Esp with under 16s.

Unless you are very confident, legally I think this is on rocky ground. It's not a bit of fun when it comes to governance/being the association that represents thhe industry. It's why when stuff goes tits up the governing bodies normally cop it. As much as I appreciate what they are trying to do, it comes w huge risks if we get (amongst other things) childhood exploitation. Which in this industry wouldnt be all surprising.

This is the problem we have in this day and age, because safeguarding is in vogue for many businesses and organisations, people actually do think they're confident on 'safeguarding' because work once sent them on a weeks course in Shrewsbury. I once done the end of day report and balanced the tills at Blockbuster when I was 18, but I'd never call myself an accountant but in todays world; the fantasy and LinkedIn style bullshit speak, everyone thinks they're an expert on these things.

The concept of the PWA on paper is in good spirit, but the conflicts of interests involved leave a checkmate scenario at the every turn. So if I become a member as a trainer, they promise to defend me against accusations. Girl X joins as a wrestler and they promise the same. Girl X accuses me of sexual harassment in the training school. The PWA now has to both attack and defend each of us. Same goes for all the other scenarios you can imagine. 

[Michael_3165]

1 hour ago, AndiRush said:

This is the problem we have in this day and age, because safeguarding is in vogue for many businesses and organisations, people actually do think they're confident on 'safeguarding' because work once sent them on a weeks course in Shrewsbury. I once done the end of day report and balanced the tills at Blockbuster when I was 18, but I'd never call myself an accountant but in todays world; the fantasy and LinkedIn style bullshit speak, everyone thinks they're an expert on these things.

The concept of the PWA on paper is in good spirit, but the conflicts of interests involved leave a checkmate scenario at the every turn. So if I become a member as a trainer, they promise to defend me against accusations. Girl X joins as a wrestler and they promise the same. Girl X accuses me of sexual harassment in the training school. The PWA now has to both attack and defend each of us. Same goes for all the other scenarios you can imagine. 

I don't think they are promising to defend as they aren't a union or legal entity. Its like the GMC doesn't defend doctors, they govern them.. 

Edited September 29, 2020 by Michael_3165

[El Mistique]

1 hour ago, MPDTT said:

I actually wondered how long it would take for defamation lawsuits to start to surface. I believe many will follow

Apparently/ allegedly so far Matt Riddle, Trent Seven & Sid Scala have already proceeded down this route. 

[RedRooster]

2 hours ago, MPDTT said:

I actually wondered how long it would take for defamation lawsuits to start to surface. I believe many will follow and I do hope those who made the accusations are able to provide evidence to substantiate their claims - or this could get extremely ugly. Every accuser in such a scenario should never be dismissed and their accusations treated as genuine, but if allegations can't be substantiated, particularly in such a litigious society like the US, then I worry women doing the right thing could fall foul of defamation law. 

Anyone on the forum with decent knowledge of defamation law and what is required for a reasonable defence on both sides of the Atlantic?

I can’t speak for the US, but it varies in the UK because of the various devolved legal systems. There have been changes to the law in recent years that have made it harder to actually take someone to court - essentially you have to prove that the allegation did cause you reputational harm.

Ultimately though the burden of proof is on the accuser, which makes cases like this difficult. The other defence(s) that is relevant in cases like this would be along the lines of what I mentioned in the first paragraph- that they do not have a reputation to defend (or, I guess, if there were multiple allegations you could perhaps argue that there’s no proof your particular allegation is what caused damage to person X)

I’m more familiar with the law about the this in Scotland that in England, so someone may well want to jump in with added or more up-to-date info.

[AVM]

I’m no lawyer but I did seek some advice a couple months back and that’s pretty much it in England. Your three main defences are truth, reputation and privilege. The key thing is the burden of proof is ‘by the preponderance of the evidence’, in other words on the balance of probabilities. Anyone seeking to actually take their case to court ought to be confident of passing this threshold, else they could see their case elevated to mainstream coverage.

I cannot comment for America, but in passing research I believe the burden of proof lies with the person bringing the case, not the person who originally made the claim - I could be very wrong here. 

In general my thoughts are most of these cases are being brought without the intention of going to trial, basically to spook the accusers into a retraction.

[Guest]

Is this an avenue worth pursuing with Sport England? Click for the full thread:

 

[poetofthedeed]

So what the fuck is joey Ryan's end game? Even if he won this case, he has next to no chance of seeing the money and he's not going to get booked anywhere reputable again........ Is he going to sue impact?? 

[IANdrewDiceClay]

25 minutes ago, poetofthedeed said:

So what the fuck is joey Ryan's end game?

He's a wrestler with no grasp of reality. People like him have no end game. He's a fucking idiot.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Uncle Zeb said:

Is this an avenue worth pursuing with Sport England? Click for the full thread:

 

I’d agree that wrestling doesn’t fit under sport. It’s athletic but it’s not a sport. It’s a weird hybrid of dance, stuntman & acting that only adds to the insecurity’s of those involved and leads to their weak egos taking it out on others. 

[Polish Dad]

Despite the name, Sport England's mission statement is set to cover sports & physical activity. I obviously don't know their reasoning for blocking wrestling from joining the MAC, but with the MAC already providing guidance & assistance it feels like it'd be a good thing for the industry to be allowed to formalise that relationship.

[BomberPat]

2 hours ago, Louch said:

I’d agree that wrestling doesn’t fit under sport. It’s athletic but it’s not a sport. It’s a weird hybrid of dance, stuntman & acting that only adds to the insecurity’s of those involved and leads to their weak egos taking it out on others. 

While this is broadly true in terms of wrestling as a performance, wrestling training isn't fundamentally all that different from any other martial arts training, structurally. Any safeguarding measures that can be in place for MMA, boxing or jiu-jitsu schools should be equally valid for wrestling schools.

There are different things to take into account when it comes to running shows, which is why I think - while I understand the arguments against - any solution needs to have people with experience of wrestling involved. So an additional layer of safeguarding needs to be in place to ensure that those people aren't taking advantage of their situation - which is why accountability is so important.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the Joey Ryans and David Starrs of the world largely aren't abusing people at wrestling schools and shows, they're taking advantage of wrestling being a largely transient sport to take advantage of people when they're isolated in hotels or bars on tour, or they're in people's Twitter DMs. So that goes beyond a lot of the scope of what any safeguarding protocol can reasonably be expected to account for and, again, there needs to be a clear sense of accountability, clear procedure, and clear reporting lines to make victims feel comfortable speaking out when any of those things happen.