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Comedy and offense


Chris B

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6 minutes ago, Pogue said:

I'm a bloke, I'd call two gay lads I know blokes, I'd call someone born a girl who chooses to live as a man a bloke, is that wrong? Is this too simplistic? How is it wrong? I'm not arsed what anyone else identifies as, how can this possibly be wrong yet me refusing to be labelled as cis is queried? 

I'm not for a second accusing you of insulting me or anyone else by using the term cis but I don't see how it isn't double standards

Apologies if this in anyway comes across as aggressive, not my intention at all

To be fair, YOU queried it. Like, literally, you asked if it meant you were transphobic. The only answer to that is your reasons behind it. You've explained that you don't like it, but you seem comfortable with what the term means  - you described yourself as 'male by birth who feels comfortable in their own body'. That's pretty much literally what 'cis' means.

Calling someone what they choose to be identified as is great. A bunch of people refuse to. And it's not 'too simplistic'. That side of things is all good - it's just a different conversation. 

 

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Mermaids covers pretty much everything in their response to JK Rowling. 

https://mermaidsuk.org.uk/news/dear-jk-rowling/

With tomorrow's Times yet again pushing the issue and stating Government positions and basically denying us rights, again.  Is it any wonder we're getting angry and sick of constantly having to fight for basics 

In the last 12 months, I've been doxxed twice, attacked once and abused so many times I lost count. This year I've been stalked and doxxed again,

I came back here because this place is largely free of gender critical crap and its a blessing in disguise. With a trans wrestler in AEW  I thought maybe that i didn't have to fight agsin. it is so tiring 

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5 hours ago, patiirc said:

I thought maybe that i didn't have to fight agsin. it is so tiring 

If you're uncomfortable with a subject being discussed, and it causes you distress, why not avoid the page? Also, where in this thread is this 'fight'? 

What you've endured over the last 12 months sounds incredibly sad, scary and frustrating, but the governments duty to ensure they're doing what's necessary to protect women does not deny trans people their rights, as I see it. If I'm wrong in that, please explain.   

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6 hours ago, Pogue said:

I appreciate all the replies but none seem to have answered my queries 

Why, can't you read?

I'm not going to call myself CIS ever. Didn't even know what it meant until yesterday. But I've no issue with being CIS if that's what I am. It's just another word. Can't think of the last time I ever had to use straight, heterosexual, etc to describe myself anyway. Why would I?

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7 hours ago, Pogue said:

I appreciate all the replies but none seem to have answered my queries so I'll leave this and stick to on topic from now on, bit more fun there

Bit more fun there? I don't think a topic like this is meant to be 'fun'. It's an extremely serious topic that people are trying to educate you about. What do you need? Some funny pictures or something? A nice song?

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7 hours ago, Pogue said:

I appreciate all the replies but none seem to have answered my queries

What's your sexuality and gender?

Edited by Devon Malcolm
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23 minutes ago, ThumpSquids said:

If you're uncomfortable with a subject being discussed, and it causes you distress, why not avoid the page? Also, where in this thread is this 'fight'? 

What you've endured over the last 12 months sounds incredibly sad, scary and frustrating, but the governments duty to ensure they're doing what's necessary to protect women does not deny trans people their rights, as I see it. If I'm wrong in that, please explain.   

We're in the midst of this thing where Black People are protesting because of the way they are treated by society. 

You're suggestion is like them we should hide from all the prejudice and hate by ignoring it and let those who arent trans discuss it like adults in the room. it's actually the very definition of discrimination :/ I'm also saddened that so many have brought in to the myth that we're somehow a danger. it's like the 1980s gay discourse all over again and it's really depressing to see that people see danger and are slipping into a discussion when gender roles are firmly back to traditional 1950s crap where men are men, women are women and need protection from men, by mens actions, which is effectively what you're asserting. The Internet has a lot to answer for and the way in which people are so easily radicalised to hate and not even recognise it is extremely depressing. 

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19 minutes ago, patiirc said:

You're suggestion is like them we should hide from all the prejudice and hate by ignoring it and let those who arent trans discuss it like adults in the room. it's actually the very definition of discrimination :/ I'm also saddened that so many have brought in to the myth that we're somehow a danger. it's like the 1980s gay discourse all over again and it's really depressing to see that people see danger and are slipping into a discussion when gender roles are firmly back to traditional 1950s crap where men are men, women are women and need protection from men, by mens actions, which is effectively what you're asserting. The Internet has a lot to answer for and the way in which people are so easily radicalised to hate and not even recognise it is extremely depressing. 

Thanks, but if it's OK, I'll assert what I'm asserting, not what you wish to read into my assertions. Clearly, I didn't suggest hiding from prejudice, nor ignore it. You stated that you were tired of the 'fight', and if that's the case, and you wish this group to remain a place where you can be yourself, why not skip this particular discussion? Others have the right to go back and forth with ideas, illuminate subjects and learn without having to tread carefully for fear of upsetting someone, surely? Is that not what healthy discourse is about? Personally, I would like everything to be discussed, brought into the light, so that education is possible, which - I hope - would allay any fears, worries, prejudices, some people may instinctively hold. 

I disagree with your next point utterly. Women do need protection from men. Men commit the vast majority of violent crimes against women. The vast majority. Also the vast majority of violent crimes against trans people. I did not mention gender roles, or that trans people are 'likely' to be a danger to women. If you wish to, and it's fine if you don't, but address what I've actually written, not a straw-man.

Finally, please illustrate the hate that you suggest I am not recognising. 

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I love the idea of a sexual predator transitioning solely so they can assault women in changing rooms and toilets, then being thwarted by a sign saying these rooms aren’t gender neutral. “Damn, my respect for signage has thwarted my nefarious desires”

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1 hour ago, ThumpSquids said:

Thanks, but if it's OK, I'll assert what I'm asserting, not what you wish to read into my assertions. Clearly, I didn't suggest hiding from prejudice, nor ignore it. You stated that you were tired of the 'fight', and if that's the case, and you wish this group to remain a place where you can be yourself, why not skip this particular discussion? Others have the right to go back and forth with ideas, illuminate subjects and learn without having to tread carefully for fear of upsetting someone, surely? Is that not what healthy discourse is about? Personally, I would like everything to be discussed, brought into the light, so that education is possible, which - I hope - would allay any fears, worries, prejudices, some people may instinctively hold. 

I disagree with your next point utterly. Women do need protection from men. Men commit the vast majority of violent crimes against women. The vast majority. Also the vast majority of violent crimes against trans people. I did not mention gender roles, or that trans people are 'likely' to be a danger to women. If you wish to, and it's fine if you don't, but address what I've actually written, not a straw-man.

Finally, please illustrate the hate that you suggest I am not recognising. 

The hate is the bathroom 'wars' sweetness. The ideology behind that is that all trans women are potential predators and sexual deviants and want to gain access to women's spaces to do untold things. For the purposes of this battle, trans women are seen as men, which is why the response was as was. 

Painting a million odd people or so in the uk as pervs, predators or indeed peados is incredibly hateful and discriminatory. it promotes fear, hatred, stirs up resentment and leads to further attacks and violence on trans and lgbt people that has already spiked since Brexit. 

In terms of switching off, I can't because there is no off switch. It's endemic and everywhere. It took nearly 5 years to win back my vote. Even now i still dont have the same rights as other cisgendered people and as today shows people want to further strip that from us. 

So despite being weary, tired, battered and bruised, we have to carry on. If the likes of myself and a few others don't carry on bring 'normal' doing everyday things and generally trying to get on with life, then those who cant, or afraid will never have those role models to show that its okay to be themselves, wherever that is on the gender spectrum and that they dont have to fight for the same things as we and those before me have had too as well. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, ThumpSquids said:

I disagree with your next point utterly. Women do need protection from men. Men commit the vast majority of violent crimes against women. The vast majority. Also the vast majority of violent crimes against trans people. I did not mention gender roles, or that trans people are 'likely' to be a danger to women. If you wish to, and it's fine if you don't, but address what I've actually written, not a straw-man.

It might be that you're unintentionally bringing up elements of an ongoing issue in the larger trans discussion, and it's very much a hot-button topic.

Basically, there are discussions about tightening security around women-only spaces. As you say, this is very much about being protected from men, which is fair enough. This includes hostels, discussion groups, and also changing rooms and toilets. It's really the last two that have been the point of argument.

If you believe trans women are women, then it's all straightforward. There's no reason not to share those spaces - after all, you're both in a safe space away from the men who are the issue.

If you believe trans women are men, then you're allowing men into the safe space for women. However, you're now eliminating safe spaces for trans people, and also classing trans women (in particular) as being a danger to cis women. 

This argument has been going on for a while, and it's been increasingly unpleasant. Also, weirdly, it seems to have been a particularly British conversation - there are elements of it in the US, but we've REALLY gone in on it. A lot of conversations tend to revolve around representing fringe beliefs within the trans community as if they're the primary ones (with things like fetishists or the 'cotton ceiling' argument, which is where some trans women have criticised lesbians for not wanting to sleep with them - neither of which are very representative of most trans people's beliefs). 

The biggest issue from the trans side is that not allowing trans women into women's spaces doesn't really leave them with anywhere else - there's a lack of safe spaces generally. You don't usually have toilets or changing rooms that are appropriate for trans people. [EDIT - This also makes things *more* dangerous for them - as if they have passing privilege (as in most people not realising they're trans immediately), they then have to go into a male space and it making clear that they're trans.] Also, if you start policing it, there have been multiple stories of women who don't look obviously feminine being turned away from their own toilets or changing rooms.

When you say the 'government's duty to ensure they're doing what's necessary to protect women does not deny trans people their rights", this is a particularly bad 24 hours to say this in. The government is currently looking at scrapping plans to introduce legal self-identification for trans people, which makes it more difficult for them to be legally classed as the gender they identify as. If you're unaware of that, in particular, that sentence may have sounded like support for these changes.

Edited by Chris B
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I am looking forward to what terminal bores like Gervais will be calling their new special based on the back of all this, saying how you aren't allowed to say certain things anymore which will be available on streaming sites and they'll be on chat shows to promote.

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11 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

I am looking forward to what terminal bores like Gervais will be calling their new special based on the back of all this, saying how you aren't allowed to say certain things anymore which will be available on streaming sites and they'll be on chat shows to promote.

It'll be like all those awful American stand ups on Netflix who might as well call their specials something like, "Triggered, Much?!"

Although Gervais has already done it. It was basically the premise of his last special off the back of his hosting of the Emmy's etc.

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