Keith Houchen Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 Just now, wordsfromlee said: It'll be like all those awful American stand ups on Netflix who might as well call their specials something like, "Triggered, Much?!" Although Gervais has already done it. It was basically the premise of his last special off the back of his hosting of the Emmy's etc. Oh man that was so great when he let rip on all those celebrities, he really stuck it to them with his speech that had been okayed by lawyers first, such a maverick! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 6 hours ago, tiger_rick said: Why, can't you read? I'm not going to call myself CIS ever. Didn't even know what it meant until yesterday. But I've no issue with being CIS if that's what I am. It's just another word. Can't think of the last time I ever had to use straight, heterosexual, etc to describe myself anyway. Why would I? Possibly because you're a man, and have always benefitted from the innate advantages that come with that. If I could play Devil's Advocate for a second, and put forward the argument that some of my female friends have made to me, and that if we had more female members here, might be put better by someone else. Imagine that you're a woman in your 60s. For your whole life, you have worked to improve the situation for women in society, so that your granddaughters don't have to put up with being patted on the bottom, or sexually assaulted in a cab, or be passed over for promotion, or overlooked as a candidate for public office, or whistled at in the street, or allowed to have children and not be disadvantaged in your career, or not be shamed when it's your period. You've seen, and indeed participated, in an empowerment of women and an equalling of their standing with men. Being a woman has been something that didn't come with a set of privileges by default, but meant that you've had to struggle and overcome to get where you are. Now all of a sudden, you're not a woman, you're a cis woman. You're now a subset of your own gender, and all the progress and safe space and understanding that has been won for women is now to be shared by a new set of people who've not shared that journey, not fought those fights. A group of people moreover who were born as men and who do not share some of what you regard as intrinsic parts of the female experience. You might very well view that as an affront to all the struggle and progress that you've made and another example of patriarchal society trying to re-assert itself over you. Now... I'm not saying I agree with that argument in its entirety, but to paraphrase Chris Rock... I understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Monkee Posted June 14, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted June 14, 2020 8 minutes ago, Loki said: Now all of a sudden, you're not a woman, you're a cis woman. You're now a subset of your own gender, and all the progress and safe space and understanding that has been won for women is now to be shared by a new set of people who've not shared that journey, not fought those fights. A group of people moreover who were born as men and who do not share some of what you regard as intrinsic parts of the female experience. Disclaimer: the following isn’t aimed at you but about those women who believe in this statement. I don’t agree with this - it’s TERF ideology. It (in my opinion) is bullshit and it’s in the same vein as what Rowling is spouting on about. It marginalises trans women even more because now they don’t fit in anywhere. I get why they’re saying what they’re saying but it’s just not the right way to go about things. It’s an extreme ideology and I doubt there will ever be a middle ground for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 41 minutes ago, Loki said: You might very well view that as an affront to all the struggle and progress that you've made and another example of patriarchal society trying to re-assert itself over you. Another example that’s used in this vein is how most trans women present in the way that the patriarchy deems as feminine, longer hair, makeup, dresses etc, and as a result it just reinforces the patriarchy. Of course, as a cis man, I’m not going to tell any woman that they’re doing feminism wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members FLips Posted June 14, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted June 14, 2020 12 minutes ago, Monkee said: Disclaimer: the following isn’t aimed at you but about those women who believe in this statement. I don’t agree with this - it’s TERF ideology. It (in my opinion) is bullshit and it’s in the same vein as what Rowling is spouting on about. It marginalises trans women even more because now they don’t fit in anywhere. I get why they’re saying what they’re saying but it’s just not the right way to go about things. It’s an extreme ideology and I doubt there will ever be a middle ground for them. I know this may sound very ignorant but this would be around or thereabouts where I stand on the matter, and I don't think it's that extreme a way to be about it. I am completely more than happy to accept fluid genders, pronouns and everything like that. If you identify as a woman, full transition or not, I am happy to agree you're a woman. I will call you a woman and I believe you should have every legal and personal right a woman has. However I don't find it offensive or extreme to consider the fact that you were not a woman at birth and anyone who was is now a Cis Woman and not just a Woman. I don't view myself as a TERF or whatever that is, and without trying to sound weasel-y, I wouldn't say any of this to a Trans person as it doesn't need to be said, which I think is one of the main issues with views such as these. I'm not saying I am right, and I would never try to convince anyone I was as it's not my place and it's not my fight and for me, that's the middle ground. Not everyone is ever going to be 100% understanding of things like this, and it's up to people like me who sit in that middle ground to become more educated on the matter and keep to myself because it's not my fight to be had. Genuinely sorry if this has offended anyone in the thread. I'm more than willing to hear more takes on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Monkee Posted June 14, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted June 14, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, FelatioLips said: I know this may sound very ignorant but this would be around or thereabouts where I stand on the matter, and I don't think it's that extreme a way to be about it. I don’t think it’s ignorant. I think I may have mis-worded what I said... TERF is a ‘radical feminist’ by definition. You’ve already shown you’re not a TERF as you said you believe a trans woman has every legal and personal right a woman has. TERFs do not accept trans women at all especially legal and personal rights because they haven’t earned them by being born with a penis. So while you might agree on some of the ideology, which is perfectly reasonable obviously, you don’t sound (to me as a cis woman) like you’re being ignorant or offensive. Edited June 14, 2020 by Monkee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 5 minutes ago, Monkee said: TERF is a ‘radical feminist’ by definition. You can still be a radical feminist without being a TERF though. That’s where the first two letters makes the distinction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Monkee Posted June 14, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted June 14, 2020 7 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said: You can still be a radical feminist without being a TERF though. That’s where the first two letters makes the distinction. Absolutely. I didn’t define it properly so that’s my mistake. Thanks for clarifying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 (edited) You can also be a woman with reservations and uncertainty about this process without being either trans exclusionary OR indeed a feminist. The term TERF is bandied about far to much in my opinion. They undoubtedly exist, but if it’s thrown out as a way of denying women’s opinions it’s a step backwards. If trans women are to win this argument (and they should) then it needs to be with the consent and support of the rest of the sister hood, as it were, and that means millions of ordinary, ( i.e not politicised or vocal on Twitter) women - wives, mothers etc. Edited June 14, 2020 by Loki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 But when a lot of that “Sisterhood” don’t even support feminism, it’s a long old road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said: But when a lot of that “Sisterhood” don’t even support feminism, it’s a long old road. I certainly is! But who are we to tell women whether to consider themselves feminists or not? I'm not brave enough for that. Edited June 14, 2020 by Loki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Chris B Posted June 14, 2020 Author Paid Members Share Posted June 14, 2020 32 minutes ago, Loki said: I certainly is! But who are we to tell women whether to consider themselves feminists or not? I'm not brave enough for that. Who are we to decide whether trans women are women or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wordsfromlee Posted June 27, 2020 Share Posted June 27, 2020 Graham Linehan has finally been banned by Twitter and he's gone over to Mumsnet to moan about it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Wretch Posted June 27, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted June 27, 2020 (edited) He's relentless, isn't he? You would've hoped his mates (if he has any left at this stage) would've unplugged his WiFi ages ago for his own sanity. Can't be good for him being this obsessed. Fucking hell, edited to say I've just spotted the time he's gone whinging to Mumsnet. 3:16 in the am. Edited June 27, 2020 by Wretch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 27, 2020 Share Posted June 27, 2020 9 minutes ago, Wretch said: Can't be good for him being this obsessed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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