Paid Members BomberPat Posted June 24, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted June 24, 2019 12 minutes ago, Brewster McCloud said: What does the right wing have going for it? Well, a few things, actually: a support of free market capitalism and a desire to bring people out of poverty which has actually happened. [citation needed] For one, I don't consider "a support of free market capitalism" a net positive when I see the detrimental effect that ideology has had, and continues to have, on education day in and day out in my working life, and the absolute fuck-up of a health system it's led to in the US, to say nothing of the environment. As for bringing people out of poverty - what measure of poverty are we using? The World Bank's? The UN's? The Ethical Poverty Line? Relative or absolute poverty? The right-wing's brand of capitalism allows, if not outright ensures, that the majority of global wealth is concentrated among very few people. Global poverty could be eradicated at the cost of a few hundred billion dollars. If you want to measure the right wing's success in terms of lifting people out of poverty (debatable to say the least), then you also need to measure it's failure in terms of the number of people it could lift out of poverty plotted against our ability to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members mim731 Posted June 24, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted June 24, 2019 13 minutes ago, SuperBacon said: ReAd NiCk CoHeN iN tHe GuArDiAn Got far more of a laugh out of me than it probably should have done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Hannibal Scorch Posted June 24, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted June 24, 2019 What was it the UN said about the poverty in the UK under the tory goverment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewster McCloud Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, BomberPat said: [citation needed] For one, I don't consider "a support of free market capitalism" a net positive when I see the detrimental effect that ideology has had, and continues to have, on education day in and day out in my working life, and the absolute fuck-up of a health system it's led to in the US, to say nothing of the environment. As for bringing people out of poverty - what measure of poverty are we using? The World Bank's? The UN's? The Ethical Poverty Line? Relative or absolute poverty? The right-wing's brand of capitalism allows, if not outright ensures, that the majority of global wealth is concentrated among very few people. Global poverty could be eradicated at the cost of a few hundred billion dollars. If you want to measure the right wing's success in terms of lifting people out of poverty (debatable to say the least), then you also need to measure it's failure in terms of the number of people it could lift out of poverty plotted against our ability to do so. What detrimental effect? Again, you're doing the same thing as you did in the books thread - using rhetorical flourishes and not giving examples or supplying evidence. It's not debatable to say the least: countries who have adopted capitalism are more wealthy than those that haven't. I'll link you to graphs if you really want... Do you actually think I want people to stay poor? I'm curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 Just now, Brewster McCloud said: Again, you're doing the same thing as you did in the books thread Actually read the thing he was criticising? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewster McCloud Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 Which was what? Have you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 This is a thread for why tories are cunts, that's the criteria. Â There are other threads for the discussion you want, why not use them or create a new one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted June 24, 2019 Author Paid Members Share Posted June 24, 2019 I mean, this thread seemed like a good idea at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewster McCloud Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 Just bored, man. You're right, though, this thread is about the Tories being cunts and I shouldn't have disrupted it. Bunch of cunts etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WyattSheepMask Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 8 minutes ago, Brewster McCloud said: What detrimental effect? Again, you're doing the same thing as you did in the books thread - using rhetorical flourishes and not giving examples or supplying evidence. It's not debatable to say the least: countries who have adopted capitalism are more wealthy than those that haven't. I'll link you to graphs if you really want... Do you actually think I want people to stay poor? I'm curious. Oh well, it must be true if thereâs a graph. I came across this one indicating the interest in each new post you make Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewster McCloud Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 Carbomb, Tommy, Keith Houchen, Devon Malcolm like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted June 24, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted June 24, 2019 Just now, Brewster McCloud said: What detrimental effect? Again, you're doing the same thing as you did in the books thread - using rhetorical flourishes and not giving examples or supplying evidence. It's not debatable to say the least: countries who have adopted capitalism are more wealthy than those that haven't. I'll link you to graphs if you really want... Do you actually think I want people to stay poor? I'm curious. If you're going to accuse someone else of using "rhetorical flourishes" and not supplying evidence, it does help if you've got a shred of evidence yourself, you know? What detrimental effect? Look at the state of healthcare in the US - the richest country in the world, yet ranked 22nd out of 35 industrialised countries for life expectancy, the highest rate of infant mortality, heart and lung disease of any developed country. Several studies show it to be simultaneously the most expensive and worst performing healthcare system of any in the developed world. The free market in action! As for the free market effect in education - I work in higher education, and am constantly frustrated by the pivot toward seeing students and employers as "customers" or "end users" rather than students, and the financially motivated ideology that gets us there. Across the UK, the rise in "free schools" and "academies", tendering for contracts, and an obsessed fixation on league tables has crippled the education system. Schools with a higher Ofsted ranking are admitting fewer children eligible for free school meals than they were in 2010, while lower ranked schools have a higher concentration of these pupils. A free market approach to education demonstrably increases social stratification, reduces social mobility, and changes the focus from education and enrichment to profitability. Oh, and how about that aforementioned report from a member of the UN Human Rights Council - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48354692 And I hope I don't have to enumerate the negative impact of free market capitalism on the environment! Quote It's not debatable to say the least: countries who have adopted capitalism are more wealthy than those that haven't. The United States is the wealthiest country in the world, yet some 43 million people live in poverty, and a further 100 million (i.e. a third of the population) live in "near-poverty". In the UK, roughly 20% of the population live in poverty, and that's a significant increase since 2012. The wealth of a country is irrelevant if it cannot provide for its people. A wealthy country that allows its people to live in poverty isn't demonstrative of the success of right wing capitalism, it's evidence of its failings. Again, our measure of success should not be "how many people have we lifted from poverty", it should be "how many people have we lifted from poverty compared to how many we have the capacity to", and unfettered free market capitalism cannot be considered anything close to a success by this measure.  And, as an aside, if we talk in terms other than the purely economic, the International Journal of Health Services published an interesting study in the mid-80s, called "Capitalism, Socialism and quality of life" comparing physical quality of life in socialist and capitalist countries, adjusted for economic development. It found that 30 out of 36 comparisons between countries at roughly equivalent levels of economic development showed a higher quality of life in Socialist than in Capitalist countries.  Quote Do you actually think I want people to stay poor? I'm curious. No, I just think you're mistaken on the nature of poverty, and how best to alleviate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Tommy! Posted June 24, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted June 24, 2019 44 minutes ago, Brewster McCloud said: Carbomb, Tommy, Keith Houchen, Devon Malcolm like this. I think you've massively overestimate my interest in you there chief, if my name hadn't been dropped I'd have skimmed right past it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRooster Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 Moving back to the topic at hand, this clip from Jeremy Hunt is the most insane thing Iâve seen a Tory say in some time. Imagine being so âeh, whatevsâ about this...no wonder people mispronounce his surname: https://mobile.twitter.com/politicalhackuk/status/1142765778594357250 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Chest Rockwell Posted June 24, 2019 Moderators Share Posted June 24, 2019 That's just because he is TOUGH enough to make the HARD DECISIONS (as long as they don't affect him). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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