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A big part of why this has all gone tits-up is because they've allowed people who shouldn't have much power to dictate the narrative. The Brexiters have gone on about how this was "the biggest exercise in democracy in British history" because of the turn-out, but others have failed to challenge them with the simple fact that a win of 52% to 48% is not a huge political mandate. 

They should've been challenged on their attempts to, as I mentioned before, make it into a zero-sum win, and get everything their way via a narrow margin. There are a lot of people that Brexit screws over, and what the Leave side should've done from the outset was attempt to work with Remain voices to come up with solutions that might mitigate or even negate the impact of Brexit on those people. That would've shown they actually care about what happens to people in this country, rather than getting their agenda through to satisfy their basest political and social impulses. 

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11 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

The Brexiters have gone on about how this was "the biggest exercise in democracy in British history" because of the turn-out, but others have failed to challenge them with the simple fact that a win of 52% to 48% is not a huge political mandate. 

Yeah, but both sides were always going to play it that way regardless of the result. If we'd seen a win for remain by that margin do you think we'd be giving the time of day to those who voted to leave and who claim that it's not a huge political mandate? Of course not. We'd be telling them that they got their silly vote, Farage and his pals lost, so bugger off and get on with it.

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4 minutes ago, David said:

Yeah, but both sides were always going to play it that way regardless of the result. If we'd seen a win for remain by that margin do you think we'd be giving the time of day to those who voted to leave and who claim that it's not a huge political mandate? Of course not. We'd be telling them that they got their silly vote, Farage and his pals lost, so bugger off and get on with it.

Normally, I'd say that might be the case, but given how many people have turned out to be Brexiters, particularly MPs and other political figures, I'm more convinced now we'd get a lot of pressure to campaign for EU reform. Going from how the Brexiters have behaved post-referendum, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have been the last we'd hear about it. Although they'd probably be going on about how the ref was fixed.

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24 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Normally, I'd say that might be the case, but given how many people have turned out to be Brexiters, particularly MPs and other political figures, I'm more convinced now we'd get a lot of pressure to campaign for EU reform. Going from how the Brexiters have behaved post-referendum, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have been the last we'd hear about it. Although they'd probably be going on about how the ref was fixed.

That's my point though, it wouldn't have been the last we heard about it from either side. It's the same with the Scottish independence referendum as well. 

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1 hour ago, Carbomb said:

A big part of why this has all gone tits-up is because they've allowed people who shouldn't have much power to dictate the narrative. The Brexiters have gone on about how this was "the biggest exercise in democracy in British history" because of the turn-out, but others have failed to challenge them with the simple fact that a win of 52% to 48% is not a huge political mandate. 

Wales voted for devolution in 1997 on a tighter margin than that though; 50.3% in favour, to 49.7% opposed, & it stood.  Smaller fish, I grant you, but if it's tight margins you want, then ...

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And for a little light relief, this is Mrs May's Brexit defined:
 

 

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1 hour ago, David said:

That's my point though, it wouldn't have been the last we heard about it from either side. It's the same with the Scottish independence referendum as well. 

True. Either way, it does show how much the quality of political debate has lowered, if it ever was high in the first place. Both sides have been arguing in very bad faith, IMO, although I think the right-wing side of Leave more so than any of the Remain side, and because of how long it's gone on and how personal it's got, people of both stripes are now even more entrenched and tribal, wanting more to be right than what's good for people.

1 hour ago, mikehoncho said:

Wales voted for devolution in 1997 on a tighter margin than that though; 50.3% in favour, to 49.7% opposed, & it stood.  Smaller fish, I grant you, but if it's tight margins you want, then ...

Yeh, but Blair had a habit of not listening to any dissenting voices, and now look what's happened. 

That said, not knowing enough about grassroots Welsh politics, I would be interested to know how the winning side would have dealt with the concerns of those who didn't want devolution.

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1 hour ago, mikehoncho said:

And for a little light relief, this is Mrs May's Brexit defined:
 

 

Nice bit, but what the fuck is up with those stupid subtitles? 

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4 minutes ago, Loki said:

Nice bit, but what the fuck is up with those stupid subtitles? 

That did spoil it, but the context of the bit is about right.

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Not really.  It's funny but it's not accurate.  It's more like

"Who wants to leave Burger King and go eat elsewhere"

6 people raise their hand.

"Ok, good now where shall we go eat instead?  I'll make a reservation."

"NO EATING, LEAVE MEANS LEAVE"

"But we need some sort of plan, I mean we're all hungry so surely we - "

"TRAITOR, WHY CAN'T WE JUST LEAVE. I DIDN'T VOTE FOR A MEAL I JUST WANT TO LEAVE."

"But it's raining  :("

Edited by Loki

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11 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Yeh, but Blair had a habit of not listening to any dissenting voices, and now look what's happened. 

That said, not knowing enough about grassroots Welsh politics, I would be interested to know how the winning side would have dealt with the concerns of those who didn't want devolution.

The modern devolution movement was kick-started in 1979, & it didn't succeed so stayed dormant until 1996/7 ... the "for voters" accepted the 1979 result.  The "against" voters in the 1997 referendum also accepted the result to approve devolution by the narrowest of margins as the country was gaining ground what with Cool Cymru, etc.  And of course Tony Blair was instrumental in that, for good or bad.  The National Assembly for Wales was born by the 06 August 1999 election process.

Since 2011, varying reports, papers & referenda have been held to further pad out the legislative powers for the Welsh Government, as it's now called.

As far as I can tell, given my advanced years & having lived, voted & wot-not through processes since 1997 (too young in 1979) the arguements against devolution have been listened to, & the concerns have been reasonably addressed, which makes for calm debate on the whole.

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2 minutes ago, Loki said:

"But it's raining  :("

"PROJECT FEAR! BELIEVE IN OUR ABILITY TO MAKE UMBRELLAS"

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1 minute ago, mikehoncho said:

The modern devolution movement was kick-started in 1979, & it didn't succeed so stayed dormant until 1996/7 ... the "for voters" accepted the 1979 result.  The "against" voters in the 1997 referendum also accepted the result to approve devolution by the narrowest of margins as the country was gaining ground what with Cool Cymru, etc.  And of course Tony Blair was instrumental in that, for good or bad.  The National Assembly for Wales was born by the 06 August 1999 election process.

Since 2011, varying reports, papers & referenda have been held to further pad out the legislative powers for the Welsh Government, as it's now called.

As far as I can tell, given my advanced years & having lived, voted & wot-not through processes since 1997 (too young in 1979) the arguements against devolution have been listened to, & the concerns have been reasonably addressed, which makes for calm debate on the whole.

Thanks for that.

Thing is, though, things like devolution were planned for, and there wasn't necessarily a downside so significant that Welsh voters might not accept either result through worry about severe damage to their lives, no? Happy to be corrected if wrong, but it doesn't seem like there were many pitfalls for Welsh people having their own government.

With Brexit, plenty of people have actually stated that their lives will be negatively impacted, whether it be personal or business. Remaining is a known quantity, Leaving isn't - it's therefore on the Leave side to persuade people that what they were worried about can be addressed and dealt with, and not to constantly yell "YOU LOST, DEAL WITH IT". Basically, the Leave position appears to be "well, we won, so fuck everyone else, right?"

I've said this before, but people kept banging on about Labour's "magic money tree" for all their policies; it seems nobody is willing to go as relentlessly after the Leave side's "Believe In Britain" bullshit - the "magic patriotism tree", so to speak. We could leave the EU safely as the world's 5th biggest economy, but it requires time, patience, intelligence, and planning. The government and the Leave campaign's major figures have shown absolutely fuck-all of that. The right-wing side of Leave have behaved like fucking children with their "WE WANT BREXIT RIGHT NOW", and it's gone and provoked similar reactions in the Remain side as a result. 

Of course, the crying shame of all this absolute clusterfuck is that, whether we do end up Leaving or Remaining, none of the grievances aired will be addressed, because very few of them were actually caused by the EU. It has plenty of shit in its locker that needs addressing, but none of this will do any of that.

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47 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Either way, it does show how much the quality of political debate has lowered, if it ever was high in the first place.

I think the level of political debate reflects society in general these days for the most part. Very few people are willing to listen to or acknowledge another point of view, we all operate within our own little bubbles on social media where we rarely have to interact with someone who has opposing views save from the odd social media encounter which usually ends with people being called snowflakes or racists.

10 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

I've said this before, but people kept banging on about Labour's "magic money tree" for all their policies; it seems nobody is willing to go as relentlessly after the Leave side's "Believe In Britain" bullshit - the "magic patriotism tree", so to speak.

Of course we've seen people question the leave sides "patriotism tree." Certain sections of the media do it constantly, while other sections don't. The sections who do are usually the ones who turn a blind eye to Corbyn and his money tree, and vice versa. 

12 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

With Brexit, plenty of people have actually stated that their lives will be negatively impacted, whether it be personal or business. Remaining is a known quantity, Leaving isn't - it's therefore on the Leave side to persuade people that what they were worried about can be addressed and dealt with, and not to constantly yell "YOU LOST, DEAL WITH IT". Basically, the Leave position appears to be "well, we won, so fuck everyone else, right?"

Again, if it went the other way we'd all be telling the bad losers on the leave side to piss off back under their rock, wouldn't we? The people have spoken Nige, you lost! So bugger off! Deal with it, you racist mentalists, etc etc.

That's how it seems to be these days, sadly.

13 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Of course, the crying shame of all this absolute clusterfuck is that, whether we do end up Leaving or Remaining, none of the grievances aired will be addressed, because very few of them were actually caused by the EU. It has plenty of shit in its locker that needs addressing, but none of this will do any of that.

What will happen though, is the shit that we heard our politicians lay at the door of Brussel's previously will now have to be answered for, won't it? Our elected representatives will be held accountable, which is a good thing, right? 

As a nation we can democratically elect a Government who will take charge post-Brexit and set about finding Britains place in the world. No more excuses about the EU, it's on them.

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Apologies if I've posted this before. One thing I notice about reasons to remain and the effect of leaving are always centred around economic reasons.  There are swarms of leave voters who couldn't give a fuck about that, they care about immigration and immigration only.  You can tell them how foreigners impact the economy positively, or how the EU has stricter entry requirements than we currently have here but it matters not one jot.  It's a hit worth taking.

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