Brexit

[mikehoncho]

11 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Yeh, but Blair had a habit of not listening to any dissenting voices, and now look what's happened. 

That said, not knowing enough about grassroots Welsh politics, I would be interested to know how the winning side would have dealt with the concerns of those who didn't want devolution.

The modern devolution movement was kick-started in 1979, & it didn't succeed so stayed dormant until 1996/7 ... the "for voters" accepted the 1979 result.  The "against" voters in the 1997 referendum also accepted the result to approve devolution by the narrowest of margins as the country was gaining ground what with Cool Cymru, etc.  And of course Tony Blair was instrumental in that, for good or bad.  The National Assembly for Wales was born by the 06 August 1999 election process.

Since 2011, varying reports, papers & referenda have been held to further pad out the legislative powers for the Welsh Government, as it's now called.

As far as I can tell, given my advanced years & having lived, voted & wot-not through processes since 1997 (too young in 1979) the arguements against devolution have been listened to, & the concerns have been reasonably addressed, which makes for calm debate on the whole.

[Carbomb]

2 minutes ago, Loki said:

"But it's raining  :("

"PROJECT FEAR! BELIEVE IN OUR ABILITY TO MAKE UMBRELLAS"

[Carbomb]

1 minute ago, mikehoncho said:

The modern devolution movement was kick-started in 1979, & it didn't succeed so stayed dormant until 1996/7 ... the "for voters" accepted the 1979 result.  The "against" voters in the 1997 referendum also accepted the result to approve devolution by the narrowest of margins as the country was gaining ground what with Cool Cymru, etc.  And of course Tony Blair was instrumental in that, for good or bad.  The National Assembly for Wales was born by the 06 August 1999 election process.

Since 2011, varying reports, papers & referenda have been held to further pad out the legislative powers for the Welsh Government, as it's now called.

As far as I can tell, given my advanced years & having lived, voted & wot-not through processes since 1997 (too young in 1979) the arguements against devolution have been listened to, & the concerns have been reasonably addressed, which makes for calm debate on the whole.

Thanks for that.

Thing is, though, things like devolution were planned for, and there wasn't necessarily a downside so significant that Welsh voters might not accept either result through worry about severe damage to their lives, no? Happy to be corrected if wrong, but it doesn't seem like there were many pitfalls for Welsh people having their own government.

With Brexit, plenty of people have actually stated that their lives will be negatively impacted, whether it be personal or business. Remaining is a known quantity, Leaving isn't - it's therefore on the Leave side to persuade people that what they were worried about can be addressed and dealt with, and not to constantly yell "YOU LOST, DEAL WITH IT". Basically, the Leave position appears to be "well, we won, so fuck everyone else, right?"

I've said this before, but people kept banging on about Labour's "magic money tree" for all their policies; it seems nobody is willing to go as relentlessly after the Leave side's "Believe In Britain" bullshit - the "magic patriotism tree", so to speak. We could leave the EU safely as the world's 5th biggest economy, but it requires time, patience, intelligence, and planning. The government and the Leave campaign's major figures have shown absolutely fuck-all of that. The right-wing side of Leave have behaved like fucking children with their "WE WANT BREXIT RIGHT NOW", and it's gone and provoked similar reactions in the Remain side as a result. 

Of course, the crying shame of all this absolute clusterfuck is that, whether we do end up Leaving or Remaining, none of the grievances aired will be addressed, because very few of them were actually caused by the EU. It has plenty of shit in its locker that needs addressing, but none of this will do any of that.

[David]

47 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Either way, it does show how much the quality of political debate has lowered, if it ever was high in the first place.

I think the level of political debate reflects society in general these days for the most part. Very few people are willing to listen to or acknowledge another point of view, we all operate within our own little bubbles on social media where we rarely have to interact with someone who has opposing views save from the odd social media encounter which usually ends with people being called snowflakes or racists.

10 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

I've said this before, but people kept banging on about Labour's "magic money tree" for all their policies; it seems nobody is willing to go as relentlessly after the Leave side's "Believe In Britain" bullshit - the "magic patriotism tree", so to speak.

Of course we've seen people question the leave sides "patriotism tree." Certain sections of the media do it constantly, while other sections don't. The sections who do are usually the ones who turn a blind eye to Corbyn and his money tree, and vice versa. 

12 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

With Brexit, plenty of people have actually stated that their lives will be negatively impacted, whether it be personal or business. Remaining is a known quantity, Leaving isn't - it's therefore on the Leave side to persuade people that what they were worried about can be addressed and dealt with, and not to constantly yell "YOU LOST, DEAL WITH IT". Basically, the Leave position appears to be "well, we won, so fuck everyone else, right?"

Again, if it went the other way we'd all be telling the bad losers on the leave side to piss off back under their rock, wouldn't we? The people have spoken Nige, you lost! So bugger off! Deal with it, you racist mentalists, etc etc.

That's how it seems to be these days, sadly.

13 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Of course, the crying shame of all this absolute clusterfuck is that, whether we do end up Leaving or Remaining, none of the grievances aired will be addressed, because very few of them were actually caused by the EU. It has plenty of shit in its locker that needs addressing, but none of this will do any of that.

What will happen though, is the shit that we heard our politicians lay at the door of Brussel's previously will now have to be answered for, won't it? Our elected representatives will be held accountable, which is a good thing, right? 

As a nation we can democratically elect a Government who will take charge post-Brexit and set about finding Britains place in the world. No more excuses about the EU, it's on them.

[Keith Houchen]

Apologies if I've posted this before. One thing I notice about reasons to remain and the effect of leaving are always centred around economic reasons.  There are swarms of leave voters who couldn't give a fuck about that, they care about immigration and immigration only.  You can tell them how foreigners impact the economy positively, or how the EU has stricter entry requirements than we currently have here but it matters not one jot.  It's a hit worth taking.

[Dead Mike]

2 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

Apologies if I've posted this before. One thing I notice about reasons to remain and the effect of leaving are always centred around economic reasons.  There are swarms of leave voters who couldn't give a fuck about that, they care about immigration and immigration only.  You can tell them how foreigners impact the economy positively, or how the EU has stricter entry requirements than we currently have here but it matters not one jot.  It's a hit worth taking.

Or so they claim. Everything changes when it's their local A&E that gets closed or one of their relatives that avoidably dies whilst waiting for an ambulance due to even more cuts. The whole 'they're poor already so they can't get it any worse' falls apart very quickly. The reality is that people claim it's a 'hit worth taking' as long it's someone else taking the hit.

[Keith Houchen]

Yep, totally agree.

[mikehoncho]

40 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Thanks for that.

Thing is, though, things like devolution were planned for, and there wasn't necessarily a downside so significant that Welsh voters might not accept either result through worry about severe damage to their lives, no? Happy to be corrected if wrong, but it doesn't seem like there were many pitfalls for Welsh people having their own government.

With Brexit, plenty of people have actually stated that their lives will be negatively impacted, whether it be personal or business. Remaining is a known quantity, Leaving isn't - it's therefore on the Leave side to persuade people that what they were worried about can be addressed and dealt with, and not to constantly yell "YOU LOST, DEAL WITH IT". Basically, the Leave position appears to be "well, we won, so fuck everyone else, right?"

I've said this before, but people kept banging on about Labour's "magic money tree" for all their policies; it seems nobody is willing to go as relentlessly after the Leave side's "Believe In Britain" bullshit - the "magic patriotism tree", so to speak. We could leave the EU safely as the world's 5th biggest economy, but it requires time, patience, intelligence, and planning. The government and the Leave campaign's major figures have shown absolutely fuck-all of that. The right-wing side of Leave have behaved like fucking children with their "WE WANT BREXIT RIGHT NOW", and it's gone and provoked similar reactions in the Remain side as a result. 

Of course, the crying shame of all this absolute clusterfuck is that, whether we do end up Leaving or Remaining, none of the grievances aired will be addressed, because very few of them were actually caused by the EU. It has plenty of shit in its locker that needs addressing, but none of this will do any of that.

The "against" crew hinted heavily that funding for Wales would be diminished if the NAfW was brought into being, due to lack of solid legislation for tax-making, etc. which in turn was addressed by the Labour government of the time, & there has been a standardised formula for funding, plus further debate on tax-raising powers of the, now, Welsh Government via the varying amendments to the Government of Wales acts.

But I get what you were thrusting at.

Brexit was voted for in Wales, in the round, despite quite a lot of EU Objective One funding for many projects; the only counties that voted majority remain are Cardiff & Vale of Glamorgan, Monmouthshire, Ceredigion & Gwynedd.

Divisive as it has been Brexit is also highlighting the wrong in the EU, namely that the parliament is elected however they don't have the final say in things as the unelected EU commission can over-ride any (God I hate this phrase) meaningful vote.

Magic money-trees aside, & I'm no fan of Corbyn, but he was the only politician who "showed the workings out" for his manifesto last time around, as I recall.

Anyway, I can't agree more about the term clusterfuck; the fuck is indeed clustered!

Edited May 23, 2019 by mikehoncho
Correction

[David]

14 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

There are swarms of leave voters who couldn't give a fuck about that, they care about immigration and immigration only.  You can tell them how foreigners impact the economy positively, or how the EU has stricter entry requirements than we currently have here but it matters not one jot.  It's a hit worth taking.

The down side of democracy I guess. People get to vote on matters according to whatever they deem important to them. 

[Carbomb]

 

24 minutes ago, David said:

Of course we've seen people question the leave sides "patriotism tree." Certain sections of the media do it constantly, while other sections don't. The sections who do are usually the ones who turn a blind eye to Corbyn and his money tree, and vice versa. 

I said we haven't seen them go after them with the same level of relentlessness, and I stand by that. Of course we've seen questioning - but the questioners, at least visible ones, seem to give up after being fobbed off with answers that in any other situation would be considered completely unaccept

24 minutes ago, David said:

Again, if it went the other way we'd all be telling the bad losers on the leave side to piss off back under their rock, wouldn't we? The people have spoken Nige, you lost! So bugger off! Deal with it, you racist mentalists, etc etc.

I've already acknowledged that. Doesn't change that Leave are the ones championing a direction that is potentially very damaging to the UK if it's not dealt with properly, and they've not only not given us any reason to believe they'll do that, the government themselves have actually demonstrated that either they're unwilling to do that, or, more likely, haven't the intellectual capacity to.

And if Remain had won, exactly how much worse would people's lives have been? Can anyone honestly say that remaining in the EU would've had the same negative impact as a badly-managed or No Deal Brexit would have had?

24 minutes ago, David said:

What will happen though, is the shit that we heard our politicians lay at the door of Brussel's previously will now have to be answered for, won't it? Our elected representatives will be held accountable, which is a good thing, right? 

As a nation we can democratically elect a Government who will take charge post-Brexit and set about finding Britains place in the world. No more excuses about the EU, it's on them.

That should be a point of satisfaction, but it won't be because so many people will be hurt by it.

Also, I find it odd that your cynicism about people's responses doesn't extend to how people will respond to a post-Brexit government's inevitable fuck-ups. Do you honestly believe, in light of everything you've seen so far, that people in this country will accept any responsibility for any shitshambles that will occur, or hold to account the officials who let it happen? Because I don't. I think Teflon cunts like Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees-Mogg were born into a society built for them, and that society will continue to fail to bring them to account for any and all of their shithousery.

13 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

Apologies if I've posted this before. One thing I notice about reasons to remain and the effect of leaving are always centred around economic reasons.  There are swarms of leave voters who couldn't give a fuck about that, they care about immigration and immigration only.  You can tell them how foreigners impact the economy positively, or how the EU has stricter entry requirements than we currently have here but it matters not one jot.  It's a hit worth taking.

It's not quite the same thing, but I posted earlier that I think a lot of this has become personal, partly because of how long the suffering from economic downturn has gone on. People no longer care about the reasons, they just want someone to blame, and people like Farage have been very good at channelling that resentment and aiming it at people who don't deserve it.

[Keith Houchen]

13 minutes ago, David said:

The down side of democracy I guess. People get to vote on matters according to whatever they deem important to them. 

I've no issue with that, my point was you aren't going to change someones mind with economic reasoning if economics isn't what they base their vote on.

[David]

8 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

I've no issue with that, my point was you aren't going to change someones mind with economic reasoning if economics isn't what they base their vote on.

Sadly, that's true. You could hit some of those ignorant types up with a full-on Power Point presentation on how immigration is a net benefit to the country, but it wouldn't matter.

[garynysmon]

29 minutes ago, mikehoncho said:

Brexit was voted for in Wales, in the round, despite quite a lot of EU Objective One funding for many projects; the only counties that voted majority remain are Cardiff & Vale of Glamorgan, Monmouthshire, Ceredigion & Gwynedd.

Divisive as it has been Brexit is also highlighting the wrong in the EU, namely that the parliament is elected however they don't have the final say in things as the unelected EU commission can over-ride any (God I hate this phrase) meaningful vote.

Brexit also highlights just how weak the Welsh media (if we have one) really is.

Any vox pop on Brexit will almost always have folk with broad valleys accents claiming that "we" are paying in too much to the EU, while blissfully unaware (or choosing to ignore) that Wales is a net beneficiary of EU membership.

There are no Welsh-specific arguments for Brexit, only the same old Daily Mail lines of "taking back control" and what have you.

Mind you, its also caused a crisis of confidence among the Welsh progressive and leftist circles who always considered Wales to be more forward thinking than some across Offa's Dyke, only to be totally flummoxed by Wales voting narrowly for Brexit.

I grew up 10 mins away from Holyhead, where Stena is one of the largest employers due to the ferry port. But despite its status as a major EU transport point, the town was one of Anglesey's Brexit strongholds, while the remainder of the county (mainly Welsh speaking and rural) was more favourable to remain.

I found this piece, and accompanying video, to be pretty heartbreaking tbh. 

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/holyhead-on-brexit-when-will-people-wake-the-f-k-up-1.3705798

Edited May 23, 2019 by garynysmon

[mikehoncho]

20 minutes ago, garynysmon said:

Brexit also highlights just how weak the Welsh media (if we have one) really is.

Any vox pop on Brexit will almost always have folk with broad valleys accents claiming that "we" are paying in too much to the EU, while blissfully unaware (or choosing to ignore) that Wales is a net beneficiary of EU membership.

There are no Welsh-specific arguments for Brexit, only the same old Daily Mail lines of "taking back control" and what have you.

Mind you, its also caused a crisis of confidence among the Welsh progressive and leftist circles who always considered Wales to be more forward thinking than some across Offa's Dyke, only to be totally flummoxed by Wales voting narrowly for Brexit.

I grew up 10 mins away from Holyhead, where Stena is one of the largest employers due to the ferry port. But despite its status as a major EU transport point, the town was one of Anglesey's Brexit strongholds, while the remainder of the county (mainly Welsh speaking and rural) was more favourable to remain.

I found this piece, and accompanying video, to be pretty heartbreaking tbh. 

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/holyhead-on-brexit-when-will-people-wake-the-f-k-up-1.3705798

The media in Wales is too Cardiff-centric; it's like the M4 ends at J33 (at a push) & that's that.  The major stories emanate from Cardiff, while fluff pieces are visited (unless there's an AM/MP involved) to pad out the "main" 27-minute news slots.

It's funny that places like Swansea, Pembrokeshire, Powys, RCT & Neath Port Talbot have all had the Objective One money flung at 'em in the past, but opted out of the EU.  Ceredigion & Gwynedd aren't the most affluent places, but they want to remain.  Cardiff & Vale need not be mentioned for well-off-ness (sp?) but Monmouthshire really does surprise me, 'cos a lot of folk there would rather the county was returned to Westminster as a unitary authority, going on conversations I've heard & read from residents over the last 20-or-so years.

[garynysmon]

7 minutes ago, mikehoncho said:

It's funny that places like Swansea, Pembrokeshire, Powys, RCT & Neath Port Talbot have all had the Objective One money flung at 'em in the past, but opted out of the EU.  Ceredigion & Gwynedd aren't the most affluent places, but they want to remain.  Cardiff & Vale need not be mentioned for well-off-ness (sp?) but Monmouthshire really does surprise me, 'cos a lot of folk there would rather the county was returned to Westminster as a unitary authority, going on conversations I've heard & read from residents over the last 20-or-so years.

I suspect that the Welsh nationalist vote was more of a factor in Ceredigion and Gwynedd, where it was seen as "un-Welsh" to vote the same way as Farage etc.

I don't need much of an excuse to post this clip of Nigel Farage embarassing himself on BBC Wales mind.

 

Edited May 23, 2019 by garynysmon