Brexit

[Carbomb]

2 minutes ago, David said:

How could it have been improved? Remember that anything further the UK could have gotten in the deal to benefit us would also have had a counter to benefit the EU.

I honestly believe this deal is the best both parties could have hoped for. It seems to be a great starting point, but contains language that allows for further deals and minor agreements down the line, which is ideal.

As I said before, the circumstances could've been improved if May had just said, right at the beginning of the process, to everyone in parliament: "Right, we've been told we need to leave. What I want from all of you is input before we even start the process of invoking A50. You have a year to get as much information in so that we can make a decision as to what we need, what we want, and what is possible, before we take it to the negotiating table."

One of the biggest complaints about this whole thing is that no-one could agree on what Brexit looks like. If we'd tried to figure it out for ourselves properly instead of letting demagogues decide it with vague appeals to jingoism, we might have something much more coherent, and it might have been an easier sell to both MPs and the public, because through all the debates in parliament, they'd have been in on the process right from the beginning.

2 minutes ago, David said:

This is an unprecedented move though, isn't it? I draw comparisons again with the independence referendum, where there were doubters who wanted to wait and see, to sit down and discuss things a bit more, but the truth is you can only discuss and plan so much.

In a situation like this you really do have to take a step into the unknown in a way, there's nothing else for it. The deal agreed by the EU is a great starting point, somewhere we can build from. Of course there's no guarantees, but that's just life I'm afraid.

Ironically enough, the same people who were telling me in pubs and suchlike during the Scottish situation that you just have to take something of a leap when it comes to this kind of situation, plan as best you can under the circumstances and take it from there, are the same ones now who are saying what you are saying because they want to remain in the EU.

Yeah, but that's my point: it hasn't been planned as best as it could've been! It's been an absolute balls-up from start to finish, and what we've got isn't the best deal, it's the best of a fucking mess.

2 minutes ago, David said:

Unfortunately, that's how political negotiations go. If you thought this was going to go smoothly, with everyone getting along and the deal being done in no time then I don't know what to tell you. 

Never thought it was going to go smoothly. I'm not naif. I just don't think it has gone as smoothly as it could have, for the reasons stated.

2 minutes ago, David said:

You know deep down, cutting through all the vague chat about mean-spirited discussions and not taking enough time to discuss things that this deal is pretty much as good as we can expect. It's a fine balance, and the more we ask for, the more we have to give up, which topples the whole thing eventually.

That's two separate things. The mean-spiritedness and lack of time to come to mature conclusions is why we don't have the best deal possible.

What we have is the best deal under the shit circumstances they've put into place.

2 minutes ago, David said:

Speaking as someone who lives in Scotland, don't buy into the left-wing, inclusive image you get from Scotland as a whole. This is a country that's rife with religious bigotry, and to a certain degree anti-English bigotry. As sad as it may sound, many Scots voted remain simply because we'd been told that middle-England and the Tories wanted to leave. 

If England or the Tories issued a statement that the sky was blue, half the folk in Scotland would argue that it was actually azure, not blue. "Anyone but England," as they say up here.

You're right though, the British in general aren't left-wing at the moment, but that's how it goes. If it were the other way around and we had a left-wing government I wouldn't be happy with people trying to circumvent our democratic vote just so they could have a right-wing influence to curb the democratically elected left-wing government.

It's on the left, and the left-wing parties to make compelling arguments to those who are on the fence come election time. The dyed in the wool right wingers are what they are, you'll not change them, but there's plenty of people in the middle who can be swayed. It's just that the left haven't done a good job of arguing their case. That's on them I'm afraid.

That's the beauty of democracy, and why I'm always in favour of anything that reduces a centralising of power, be it the EU on Britain, or London on Scotland. 

If the right see Brexit as a victory then that's fair enough, but its up to the left to make a solid, credible counter argument and provide an alternative. Victory via technicality isn't the answer.

Obviously, ah'm no fae Glesga, so ah'll huv tae tak yer wurd fer it. Overall, though, in terms of what the Scottish government's put into practice, it's demonstrably more left-wing than England. Yes, there's a problem with religious bigotry, but I'm not saying Scotland's perfect - no country is.

[David]

11 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

As I said before, the circumstances could've been improved if May had just said, right at the beginning of the process, to everyone in parliament: "Right, we've been told we need to leave. What I want from all of you is input before we even start the process of invoking A50. You have a year to get as much information in so that we can make a decision as to what we need, what we want, and what is possible, before we take it to the negotiating table."

One of the biggest complaints about this whole thing is that no-one could agree on what Brexit looks like. If we'd tried to figure it out for ourselves properly instead of letting demagogues decide it with vague appeals to jingoism, we might have something much more coherent, and it might have been an easier sell to both MPs and the public, because through all the debates in parliament, they'd have been in on the process right from the beginning.

You'll have your opinion on how you'd like to have seen the matter dealt with, and there's probably millions out there with different views and who think the current Government could have done this or that in a better way. That's how it is. 

You're never going to please everyone, but the deal we have is as good a starting point as we're going to get. 

So, we can either complain and bicker over what we should have done months ago, or we take the current deal, make it work and use it as a foundation for future discussions and negotiations. Or, we can all continue bickering and arguing over the colour of the curtains in the house while ignoring the hurricane that's fast approaching.

My view is that we avoid the no deal scenario, implement this reasonably decent deal we have, look to work to get the Conservatives out of power and kick on from there.

I think we all know deep down that no amount of online petitions or complaining on social media is going to work. There isn't going to be another referendum at the moment, and Article 50 is most likely not being revoked. We're better served to work with what we have and look to implement changes down the line.

5 minutes ago, johnnyboy said:

No, you can't.

😂

Edited March 22, 2019 by David

[Carbomb]

17 minutes ago, David said:

Or, we can all continue bickering and arguing over the colour of the curtains in the house while ignoring the hurricane that's fast approaching.

Kind of implies there's only two options, which we know there isn't. There's always the option to remain within the EU. It's unlikely, but possible, which is why people are campaigning.

[David]

Just now, Carbomb said:

Kind of implies there's only two options, which we know there isn't. There's always the option to remain within the EU. It's unlikely, but possible, which is why people are campaigning.

Again, I think that ship has sailed. By all means, keep hammering away at it, but at this stage of the process we need to start looking at the alternative. The problem is that we're seeing too many people, primarily MP's, who are digging their heels in and generally fucking about in the hope that something unlikely happens.

What will probably happen if this continues is that we fall out with no deal at all. I guess it depends if we're willing to risk going right to the wire to see if Article 50 is revoked, or if the Government just allow the deadline to pass.

Stick or twist. Take what we have and go home, or risk all or nothing.

[Carbomb]

1 minute ago, David said:

Again, I think that ship has sailed. By all means, keep hammering away at it, but at this stage of the process we need to start looking at the alternative. The problem is that we're seeing too many people, primarily MP's, who are digging their heels in and generally fucking about in the hope that something unlikely happens.

What will probably happen if this continues is that we fall out with no deal at all. I guess it depends if we're willing to risk going right to the wire to see if Article 50 is revoked, or if the Government just allow the deadline to pass.

Stick or twist. Take what we have and go home, or risk all or nothing.

Yeah, maybe. But at the very least, if nothing else, I want to see some movement made on souping up our Commonwealth connections. We've got to be part of something to stay stronger than we are by ourselves. Hell, the Shanghai Co-operation Organisation might do (rather not, but hey).

[David]

2 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Yeah, maybe. But at the very least, if nothing else, I want to see some movement made on souping up our Commonwealth connections. We've got to be part of something to stay stronger than we are by ourselves. Hell, the Shanghai Co-operation Organisation might do (rather not, but hey).

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more, and I'm all for trying to push through reform in how British politics plays out, and especially for someone new, possibly from a fresh, more central party taking the helm when the time comes to move on and forge new connections and to enact the future relationship with the EU.

But we need to get past this hurdle first, otherwise it could all go tits up.

[PowerButchi]

4 minutes ago, David said:

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more, and I'm all for trying to push through reform in how British politics plays out, and especially for someone new, possibly from a fresh, more central party taking the helm when the time comes to move on and forge new connections and to enact the future relationship with the EU.

Team Tinge!

 

[Keith Houchen]

12 minutes ago, David said:

possibly from a fresh, more central party taking the helm

So you think think the answer is somewhere down the middle?

[David]

48 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

So you think think the answer is somewhere down the middle?

It usually is Keith, it usually is.

[Loki]

Gimmick infringement, on the fence is Keith's spot.

[The King Of Swing]

6 hours ago, PowerButchi said:

Team Tinge!

 

That may be the smuggest looking group of twats, I've ever seen.

[Sergio Mendacious]

8 hours ago, johnnyboy said:

*Given the red lines that she herself imposed.

*Breadlines

[Lion_of_the_Midlands]

12 hours ago, The King Of Swing said:

That may be the smuggest looking group of twats, I've ever seen.

I think not. Exhibit A your honour. 

[Chest Rockwell]

Who are the rest of those cunts that aren't trump and farage?

[gmoney]

Aaron Banks is second from the left. THe guy on the right is a UKIP cunt, who went on to work for the Trump campaign, I can't think of his name.