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Devon Malcolm

Brexit

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46 minutes ago, Sergio Mendacious said:

Saying that the result of Brexit is untouchable because it'll gin up the far right smacks of people opining that the concerns of the midwesterners who were a massive part of putting Trump in the White House need to be front-and-center going forward because of some sort of righteous fury.

I'm not saying that's the only reason the vote result should be untouchable, I'm saying that's a very real and possible side effect of simply overriding what was a democratic vote.

48 minutes ago, Sergio Mendacious said:

It's the worst kind of saudade, the kind that makes people want to smash up the machine just because it isn't doing what they like, and darkly pointing towards things "not ending well" and it boosting the likes of Tommy Robinson seems like a thin gauze covering the idea that bad policy ideas should be ground on with regardless, because it'll anger a segment of the population.

Saudade. Nice one. Thank the lord for Google 😉

The thing is, people on both sides usually want to smash up the machine when things aren't going as they like, and they find excuses for doing so. Very rarely will they admit that they're thinking that way because they're just upset about losing. We're seeing a bunch of people at the moment who want to overturn a democratic vote mainly because they didn't like the result. And yes, I know all about the lies and deception. Quite frankly, I'd be more shocked if we'd seen a process that didn't involve lies and deception, it's what politicians do.

51 minutes ago, Sergio Mendacious said:

Certainly, it was a slim majority win, but under shady circumstances where the system seems to have been gamed in several ways — so many parallels all over global politics right now.

A slim majority win is still a win, and if it had went the other way I seriously doubt the same people crying just now would be all-ears to the wailing we'd be hearing from the opposite side.

This type of referendum was always going to result in one sizeable chunk of the population being unhappy, it's how these things work. What we need to now do is put together something that resembles a reasonable way out of the EU without robbing those won the vote of the result.

After that, maybe cunts should stop voting for the 'Tories? I know that's a radical proposition, but as a Scot it fucking astounds me how these bastards keeping getting into power. 

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Just now, David said:

slim majority win is still a win, and if it had went the other way I seriously doubt the same people crying just now would be all-ears to the wailing we'd be hearing from the opposite side.

I disagree.  The grievances that people had with the EU were, in an awful lot of cases, grievances with our government who had used the bogeyman EU to get away with shit for ages.

People that voted to leave the EU because houses are expensive, hospitals are falling down, schools are underfunded, and they can't get a doctor's appointment have wholly legitimate gripes, they're just directing their anger towards the wrong people.  The number of people who proudly claimed that voting in the referendum was the first time in their life was pure Picard facepalm.  Maybe take an interest in politics more than once every forty years and stuff might change.

Secondly, a narrow win would not have seen remainers pushing for adopting the Euro, joining Schengen, and signing up for a European army.  May's withdrawal agreement is still a hard Brexit based on the imaginary red lines in her head despite all the different flavours of leave because she thinks we hate brown people more than we like electricity, cancer treatment, and insulin.  52-48 for remain and maybe we enforce the 3 month rule (even if it actually costs more than we'd save to do so).

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5 minutes ago, Chest Rockwell said:

So no interest in addressing the point that there's a difference between lying and actual illegal activity as part of the campaign?

It's like there's a small measure of bad faith in some of David's arguments.

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Hopefully the net is closing in on Aaron Banks and Farage, Carole Cadwalladr is really getting close to finding out where the bodies are buried.

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Just now, Keith Houchen said:

Hopefully the net is closing in on Aaron Banks and Farage, Carole Cadwalladr is really getting close to finding out where the bodies are buried.

Hence why Farage has gone to ground.

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1 minute ago, johnnyboy said:

I disagree.  The grievances that people had with the EU were, in an awful lot of cases, grievances with our government who had used the bogeyman EU to get away with shit for ages.

You disagree that if it had went the other way the same people crying just now would be all-ears to the wailing we'd be hearing from the opposite side? You think those who are saying "fuck those who voted to leave, they're just stoopid, lolz" would be interested in the grievances of those stoopidz who would be upset at the vote going to remain?

I can't see that being the case.

You're right though, a lot of the issues people had should have been directed at the Government rather than the EU.

5 minutes ago, johnnyboy said:

The number of people who proudly claimed that voting in the referendum was the first time in their life was pure Picard facepalm.  Maybe take an interest in politics more than once every forty years and stuff might change.

We saw a lot of people saying the same thing during the independence referendum in Scotland, with many people who didn't vote in the past due to being entirely disillusioned with the system deciding to vote in the referendum because it was something they legitimately cared about.

You never know, maybe now, just as it was then, it could be the spark to get people interested who didn't give a toss before.

7 minutes ago, johnnyboy said:

Secondly, a narrow win would not have seen remainers pushing for adopting the Euro, joining Schengen, and signing up for a European army.  May's withdrawal agreement is still a hard Brexit based on the imaginary red lines in her head despite all the different flavours of leave because she thinks we hate brown people more than we like electricity, cancer treatment, and insulin.  52-48 for remain and maybe we enforce the 3 month rule (even if it actually costs more than we'd save to do so).

Her approach is a result of internal party politics though really, isn't it? it's not about appeasing the people who voted to leave, it's about appeasing the various factions of her own party. Like most politicians she couldn't give a fuck about the people she represents.

It really is a terrible mess, but it was our Government who created the mess by sanctioning the vote in the first place. Once you give the people their say it's political suicide to tell that the politicians have decided they didn't like the result and a do-over is the answer, which is why that hopefully won't happen.

14 minutes ago, Chest Rockwell said:

So no interest in addressing the point that there's a difference between lying and actual illegal activity as part of the campaign?

Those guilty of illegal activity should obviously be dealt with by the law, that goes without saying, but I don't see that as a reason to call the whole thing off and start again. For me, the EU vote went far beyond some "campaigns" that were fronted, on both sides, by wealthy politicians and their friends.

But yeah, those involved in illegal activity should be dealt with by the law.

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1 hour ago, David said:

You disagree that if it had went the other way the same people crying just now would be all-ears to the wailing we'd be hearing from the opposite side? You think those who are saying "fuck those who voted to leave, they're just stoopid, lolz" would be interested in the grievances of those stoopidz who would be upset at the vote going to remain?

No, because those people are pricks.  Voting remain doesn't make you a saint.

Wailing about hating immigrants from leavers would also be ignored.

Anger at the state of our public services, investment on infrastructure, wealth inequality, secure employment etc could be listened to sensibly to redirect the anger at a more appropriate target and work out how we could actually make the country better.

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4 hours ago, David said:

Those guilty of illegal activity should obviously be dealt with by the law, that goes without saying, but I don't see that as a reason to call the whole thing off and start again. For me, the EU vote went far beyond some "campaigns" that were fronted, on both sides, by wealthy politicians and their friends.

But yeah, those involved in illegal activity should be dealt with by the law.

With a victory as narrow as it was to say that it went far beyond the campaigns is just dumb. If there is substantial evidence presented of illegal activity in the campaigns then it should be enough to consider the result itself suspect. That's both common sense and how the law works in other situations, so there's no reason it should be different for this one.

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12 hours ago, David said:

I have an even greater fear that there's a second referendum and remain wins it this time, because then we'll have a whole lot of angry as fuck people who (rightly) believe that the goalposts were shifted simply because the political elite didn't get their way the first time around.

The goalpost wouldn't have moved, they were never established in the first place. No one knew where they were or how big they were. This time, if there is another Referendum, people will know. That's why we need the 2nd vote. 

 

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I think the base level effect on our democracy, both functionally amongst certain demographics and on a higher level intellectual basis, if we don’t leave will be profound.

But the effect on our actual economy if we do leave will be equally profound.

Thats why this is brutal. If economic reality is allowed to win, which frankly I almost think it should, then we risk proving democracy is a sham, and degrading any remaining soft power that provides the liberal west in discussions with the ‘regressive’ east.

Fundamentally, this is potentially the most  definitive turning point in the history of the democratic epoch.

Whether the campaign tactics were dodgy or not, that as an issue has no cut through: the message to political skimreaders, who are the majority of people, will be ‘your vote matters... to a point’... and that slope is dodgy.

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I'm bored of the Democracy argument.

Things change, and because of that opinions and ideas change. There is more of an actual construct of what Brexit looks like now. That's want democracy is, the populus govern, 36%ish of the public voted to leave in some random guise, we now know what guise that could possibly be. And it's shit. Surely the populus should have the potential to govern the overall decision?

I mean we voted to stay in the EC back in 75, why isn't that vote being honoured?

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I realise we all move in different circles but I think that most people I know who voted leave did so without any regard to economic reasons.  So trying to win their vote with economic reasoning isn't going to work.  They don't care for hard Brexit, Norway model, Canada plus, Shengen or any of that gubbins.  For them it's about borders and our own laws.

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14 minutes ago, Teedy Kay said:

I'm bored of the Democracy argument.

Things change, and because of that opinions and ideas change. There is more of an actual construct of what Brexit looks like now. That's want democracy is, the populus govern, 36%ish of the public voted to leave in some random guise, we now know what guise that could possibly be. And it's shit. Surely the populus should have the potential to govern the overall decision?

Potentially.

But then you risk running the country by referendum. Which isn’t what a representative democracy is supposed to be. That is an absolute democracy, and that does not work.

A referendum was held, and the result has never been adhered to. As a remainer, I have to be honest and say that the arguments we’ve circled back to (after 2 years of negotiating) are the same ones remain made during the referendum. And we lost.

There has to be a marker laid here. If we do not leave the EU at all, then we have to accept that we have told large swathes of the population, who to Keith’s point do not give a shit about any of the reasons why leaving is insane (hence why remain wasn’t listened to), then democracy takes a significant hit.

There’s no way around that.

Edited by d-d-d-dAz

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