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Devon Malcolm

Brexit

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Sounds like a great time out there. Segueix divertint-te molt! Going to the cheapest, less tourist-y bars seems like the best way to go about things. I didn't actively seek out different opinions either. I was just drifting to whichever bar or flat or event I was invited to as well. I just so happened to hang around with people holding a whole range of views (and ages and genders and ethnicities, although the sample skewed towards white male twentysomethings), and in those days we were still able to be civil to each other at all times. In Belgium my best mates were even a Catalan with sovereigntist sympathies and a bloke called Eirian from Ebbw Vale. My ex was a Plaid Cymru voter. One of my friends in Santiago was a Glaswegian backer of the SNP who's since met Nicola Sturgeon. I watch a programme on TV3 every week.

In Madrid I was staying at a Red Cross refugee mission and met Latin Americans and a Palestinian fleeing poverty and persecution. I can get on with separatists and definitely don't want to see them beaten up or put in a straitjacket. I just find the notion that to be a pipe dream and a fantasy. The obstacles to a fairer society aren't the existence of larger countries as long as, like you say, they aren't too centralised and they don't deny local identity. The Catalan language is no longer suppressed and that is quite correct.

I'm glad you mentioned the Old Firm, because the parallels are clear for all to see. Some people think one side is saintly and the other side is evil. I am of the opinion that Rangers and Celtic, and Real Madrid and FCB, are just as bad as each other. Both sides play up the rivalry for all it's worth just to make money and then act shocked when tempers flare. In Barcelona I guess you'd expect to find a fair few people who are convinced that Barça are angels, though.

No worries about the 'mainland' thing. In a lot of people's minds perhaps Catalonia feels like an island, which might be one of the problems in contemporary Spain. I'm not saying everyone I spoke to was a genius, or always calm or wise either. I'm also not relying on English-language travelogue books or pseudo-academic tourism blogs. I reckon we have equal disdain for that kind of thing.

I would prefer a federal Spain instead of the autonomías which is the official position of the Catalan Socialist Party. Unfortunately most of the people opposing the estado autonómico are the neo-Falangists that want to return to a unitary (and not very democratic) state. You can oppose independence without having jackboots and a swastika in the cupboard, ready to goose-step down the street. Heck, in the 2014 consulta I'd probably have voted Yes/No (the Greens asked for there to be 2 questions) and in the 2017 referendum I might've have even braved the police to vote No, like a lot of Podemos supporters did.

There are massive shades of views between pluralism and a one-party state, and between outright independence and central government rule. Sadly the only party there that identified itself as catalanista but not independentista was a small, corrupt, socially conservative one that disappeared a couple of years ago after getting 2% of the vote in a regional election. People are being driven to the extremes and the biggest anti-secession groups don't appear to be very progressive, which is unfortunate.

At the end of May, Catalans will again go to the polls in European and municipal elections. I trust there will be no suppression or brutality. Were it not for Brexit, you'd have been able to take part in those election as well. Just sayin'... 

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She lost more votes today than Gordon Brown in his entire run as PM.

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What a total utter mess. 

She has to quit at some point now? The government being found in contempt of Parliament, has that charge ever happened before?

The options are so limited now. Hard brexit is going to happen.

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In all honesty, who the fuck would want to actually take the helm as PM now? It's turned into the political equivalent of the Man United job.

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1 hour ago, quote the raven said:

What a total utter mess. 

She has to quit at some point now? The government being found in contempt of Parliament, has that charge ever happened before?

The options are so limited now. Hard brexit is going to happen.

That's the opposite of what's happening!?!?

The Grieve amendment essentially means that if the PM's deal gets voted down next week then Brexit is in the control of Parliament. You think a 'No Deal' Brexit will get voted through? Not a chance in hell IMO. Aside from a handful of ERG headbangers there's literally no political will for it. The most likely result is a 2nd referendum or a Norway style arrangement.

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1 minute ago, HarmonicGenerator said:

I just have this fear at the moment that it'll end up with a second referendum, and somehow Leave will still win.

I have an even greater fear that there's a second referendum and remain wins it this time, because then we'll have a whole lot of angry as fuck people who (rightly) believe that the goalposts were shifted simply because the political elite didn't get their way the first time around.

Also, we'll have a resurgent UKIP to look forward to, only this time it'll be Tommy fucking Robinson at the helm rather than Farage.

What could possibly go wrong?

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Last year, I got 4/1 on there being No Deal by March the whatever it is, so I hope hop it keeps fucking up til then.

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51 minutes ago, David said:

I have an even greater fear that there's a second referendum and remain wins it this time, because then we'll have a whole lot of angry as fuck people who (rightly) believe that the goalposts were shifted simply because the political elite didn't get their way the first time around.

Also, we'll have a resurgent UKIP to look forward to, only this time it'll be Tommy fucking Robinson at the helm rather than Farage.

What could possibly go wrong?

UKIP might even get an MP!.....exciting times. However, this time they wont be able to claim 'Get us out of the EU & everything will be better' as we've seen the UKIP lies disintegrate before our eyes. Every time one of them pipes up, unless they've a viable exit strategy that doesn't crash the economy & honours the Good Friday agreement then they can get back in their box.

 

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1 minute ago, Dead Mike said:

UKIP might even get an MP!.....exciting times. However, this time they wont be able to claim 'Get us out of the EU & everything will be better' as we've seen the UKIP lies disintegrate before our eyes. Every time one of them pipes up, unless they've a viable exit strategy that doesn't crash the economy & honours the Good Friday agreement then they can get back in their box.

Yeah, I don't think that's the direction they're moving in to be honest. I think they've changed direction quite a bit in recent times, and reckon they'll be more focused on the agitation and whipping up of the not-inconsiderable number of people who'll be pissed off that their democratic vote could essentially be pissed all over by politicians and people they see as "smug lefties."

If there's one thing that Nigel Farage is, it's smart. He's not an idiot, not by a long shot, and when even he's getting to fuck out of dodge it suggests that something stinks.

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1 hour ago, Dead Mike said:

That's the opposite of what's happening!?!?

The Grieve amendment essentially means that if the PM's deal gets voted down next week then Brexit is in the control of Parliament. You think a 'No Deal' Brexit will get voted through? Not a chance in hell IMO. Aside from a handful of ERG headbangers there's literally no political will for it. The most likely result is a 2nd referendum or a Norway style arrangement.

The Eu has said that’s it, no more deals this is as good as you get. Both labour and the Tories have said they have no wish to hold a second vote. Tick tock the deadline is coming... what other choice is there? We have no room to get a better deal and the current one is unacceptable. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2018/dec/05/brexit-debate-pmqs-legal-advice-may-corbyn-government-to-publish-full-legal-advice-at-around-1130am-politics-live?page=with:block-5c079386e4b04e8ca09232de#block-5c079386e4b04e8ca09232de

have a look at that. 

Edited by quote the raven

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22 minutes ago, quote the raven said:

The Eu has said that’s it, no more deals this is as good as you get. Both labour and the Tories have said they have no wish to hold a second vote. Tick tock the deadline is coming... what other choice is there? We have no room to get a better deal and the current one is unacceptable. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2018/dec/05/brexit-debate-pmqs-legal-advice-may-corbyn-government-to-publish-full-legal-advice-at-around-1130am-politics-live?page=with:block-5c079386e4b04e8ca09232de#block-5c079386e4b04e8ca09232de

have a look at that. 

I'm aware of this. It's either the PM's deal or we apply to extend A50 or take one of the 5 (or 6?) deals already offered to us that didn't meet Theresa May's 'red lines' (which are now essentially redundant). If the PM's deal doesn't pass I'm expecting Parliament to approve a Norway type deal (that's already been offered).

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