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How do you know what the wishes of those who voted to leave are?

As far as I know one of the key issues here is that no-one knows or has bothered to find out, and in a lot of cases even the people who voted to leave don't know.

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12 minutes ago, quote the raven said:

The issues with approving the redline deals is it more or less goes against the wishes of those that voted leave. A Norway deal wouldn’t be very popular at all.

Doesn't matter. A Norway deal legally removes us from the EU next March. That's the referendum honoured.

Anyone claiming they voted for something different (Canada+, total removal from all EU institutions etc) needs to ask themselves who promised them that & why did they believe them?

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2 hours ago, David said:

If there's one thing that Nigel Farage is, it's smart. He's not an idiot, not by a long shot, and when even he's getting to fuck out of dodge it suggests that something stinks.

Yeah, this. If Farage is saying in public that UKIP are becoming obsessed with Islam in general (the appointment of Yaxley-Lennon fuels this), then you know it's pretty bad and quite clear which direction they are headed. They are slowly morphing into Britain First (the undertones were there anyway) and sadly this will appeal to parts of the country and stir them up even more. I think the rise of the far right is far from slowing down.

Edited by PunkStep

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1 minute ago, Chest Rockwell said:

That's not a good reason to not leave the EU though.

Exactly. If anything, it's a motivation not to. Like I said, I ended up only just voting Remain because it seemed to me that despite the good faith of others, the predominant driving force behind Brexit is a right-wing-dominated atmosphere of racism and xenophobia. It was a difficult decision, because I do think a left-wing exit is not only possible but appealing, but at this point, it felt like fighting the rise of the far-right had become more immediate and urgent.

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19 minutes ago, Chest Rockwell said:

That's not a good reason to not leave the EU though.

Of course, but it seems nigh impossible to try and explain that to certain folk.

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22 minutes ago, Chest Rockwell said:

That's not a good reason to not leave the EU though.

No one is saying that Farage leaving UKIP because even he's unsettled by the direction they're going in is a good reason to leave the EU. 

What I did say was that while a certain segment of British society may see Parliament stepping in and scuppering Brexit, or even a fresh referendum being held which sees us not leave after all as a great result, the truth is that the far-right looks to be gearing up in anticipation of exactly that.

Anyone (and this isn't aimed at you) who thinks that UKIP actually wants to see Britain leave the EU in a fashion that the majority are happy with are being quite naive I think. The entire basis of the party is railing against the EU, and without that it has no purpose.

This new leader they have, along with his "special advisor" will be hoping and praying that something happens to derail Brexit altogether, because it would mean a mass recruitment drive to their ranks with next to no effort required on their part.

Being able to peddle that the "will of the people" was ignored, that politicians stepped in, or that the "liberal lefties" managed to force another referendum because they didn't like the result of the first one will be right up their street.

If people thought the uptick in right-wing shenanigans was unsettling after the original leave vote, just wait until the politicians water down what Brexit actually is, or even worse, a redo is ordered and the result goes the other way.

I've never been more glad not to actually live in the UK.

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I think that Brexit is just an excuse. I think the fight against that sentiment is really a different fight altogether and shouldn't be factored in to whether or not we leave.

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Yep. As always, the right-wing domination of the Brexit movement is simply the usual consequence of when people suffer following economic meltdown - they punch down at the people they're told to blame, and it's almost alway immigrants. Russia's showing a bit of imagination by blaming gays too.

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5 minutes ago, Chest Rockwell said:

I think that Brexit is just an excuse. I think the fight against that sentiment is really a different fight altogether and shouldn't be factored in to whether or not we leave.

That's the thing though, we should definitely leave. the vote was had, and as much as some may not like the result, that's how it goes. I honestly think that if we don't leave, if the result of the referendum is somehow circumvented, it'll provide the push for the far-right to grow in levels that we've not seen in decades.

The fight against the far-right may be different, but there's no doubt that blocking this result or staging a redo will simply serve to provide them with a golden opportunity to grow their ranks that otherwise wouldn't be there.

EDIT: Also, the UKIP that we'd be dealing with in that situation wouldn't be the laughable loons that Farage attracts, it would be the type of person that Tommy Robinson attracts, which is altogether far more of an issue than anything that's gone before.

Edited by David

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4 minutes ago, David said:

That's the thing though, we should definitely leave. the vote was had, and as much as some may not like the result, that's how it goes. I honestly think that if we don't leave, if the result of the referendum is somehow circumvented, it'll provide the push for the far-right to grow in levels that we've not seen in decades.

The fight against the far-right may be different, but there's no doubt that blocking this result or staging a redo will simply serve to provide them with a golden opportunity to grow their ranks that otherwise wouldn't be there.

See, I have a problem with this. Haven't there been a lot of concerns raised about corruption, and also about direct lies told to the electorate? In which case, no - that's not how it goes, and never should be.

I know I'm being idealistic about not wanting to Leave unless it's under left-wing auspices, but I don't think it's idealistic to believe that a referendum outcome resulting from lies, deceit, and corruption shouldn't be allowed to stand. It still massively pisses me off that Blair outright and openly lied to Parliament, and the cunt is still walking around free.

EDIT: Another thing. The result was narrowly in favour of Brexit, not overwhelming, which means the beliefs of Remainers need to be taken into account. This isn't a zero-sum game where Brexiters get to have everything they want. There needs to be debate and discussion about what it means for the country, because it's affecting a lot of people. The whole point of the referendum as far as Leavers were concerned, supposedly, was to take a decision that they believed would benefit the country; riding roughshod over the will of the entire electorate of the UK via a tiny majority is not beneficial, nor is it democratic.

Edited by Carbomb

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1 minute ago, Carbomb said:

See, I have a problem with this. Haven't there been a lot of concerns raised about corruption, and also about direct lies told to the electorate? In which case, no - that's not how it goes, and never should be.

There are direct lies told to the electorate in virtually every election we have though. If we go down the path of redoing every result that hasn't been entirely above-board and without corruption we'd never get anywhere.

Sad, I know, but that's the truth. Politicians bullshit all of the time and get away with it.

The only reason this particular result wouldn't be allowed to stand is if it doesn't suit those at the top of the tree, and that's the view that will be pushed through certain media outlets to the people of Britain.

I honestly believe that the social repercussions from us essentially saying "nah, we're changing this because those who voted to leave were too fucking stupid to know what they were doing" will be far worse than anything that actually leaving will do.

As I said, we've got certain figures waiting on the sidelines, hoping that this goes tits up in such a manner as to enrage a vast chunk of the population, because it'll simply turn more people to their cause than they could probably have ever dreamed.

 

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8 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Another thing. The result was narrowly in favour of Brexit, not overwhelming, which means the beliefs of Remainers need to be taken into account. This isn't a zero-sum game where Brexiters get to have everything they want. There needs to be debate and discussion about what it means for the country, because it's affecting a lot of people. The whole point of the referendum as far as Leavers were concerned, supposedly, was to take a decision that they believed would benefit the country; riding roughshod over the will of the entire electorate of the UK via a tiny majority is not beneficial, nor is it democratic.

Double post to address the edit, apologies.

The method of us actually leaving should be discussed and debated, but the actual result of the referendum shouldn't. 

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