Brexit

[Chest Rockwell]

I think your lens on that is slightly distorted if you debate in real life the way you do online. I've had my mind changed, or at least gone away with something to think about many a time.

[Carbomb]

2 minutes ago, David said:

Even if they're completely wrong about every aspect of it, has there ever been an instance you can think of where "arguing against" someone's point of view wins them over? That tactic rarely works, if at all. 

All that happens is that they get pissed off and eventually storm off, and you get the satisfaction of knowing you "won" the debate, which matters not a jot in the grand scheme of things.

If they argue like you do, Dave, I'm not surprised that's your experience of how arguments end.

[PowerButchi]

3 minutes ago, David said:

Even if they're completely wrong about every aspect of it, has there ever been an instance you can think of where "arguing against" someone's point of view wins them over? That tactic rarely works, if at all. 

All that happens is that they get pissed off and eventually storm off, and you get the satisfaction of knowing you "won" the debate, which matters not a jot in the grand scheme of things.

Which is how I suppose we ended up where we are. A lot of people voted Brexit just because they were sick of elites telling them they're wrong and just not listening to them. Disaffected working class areas were "No platformed" by the political classes and many voted out in protest. What happens now if there were to be another vote or somesuch? Is that just doubling down on their disenchantment and feelings of irrelevancy?

[Loki]

19 hours ago, Otto Dem Wanz said:

Who will "swell the numbers" and cause this civil war exactly - this lot?

 

Edit - what's more boring than Brexit chat? Tony Blair chat.

Whenever I see this picture, I always think of Dylan Thomas 

"Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day; 
Rage, rage against the dying of the light."

[Brewster McCloud]

1 minute ago, PowerButchi said:

Which is how I suppose we ended up where we are. A lot of people voted Brexit just because they were sick of elites telling them they're wrong and just not listening to them. Disaffected working class areas were "No platformed" by the political classes and many voted out in protest. What happens now if there were to be another vote or somesuch? Is that just doubling down on their disenchantment and feelings of irrelevancy?

Yes, but what "elites"? What "platform"? There's always been a big nasty government telling the working man how to behave. Let's think about the 1980s when the working class voted for Thatcher in large numbers. Unfortunate, but a fact. A feeling of irrelevancy isn't unique to the working class. It's why people vote in the first place: "Oi, I want this, mister Proime Minister!" Usually, it's something fairly trivial, like lower taxes, because that's all people tend to want - the ability to make money and not have their stupid prejudices challenged by The Man. What's interesting about the Brexit is that we've heard a howl from people who don't normally howl. They don't like immigrants, basically for the perceived idea that Polish people are stealing all the bog scrubbing jobs. That's what I've gathered. Before Tony Blair, the left wing working class had a recognisable cause. Now, let's just lash out in fury because we have no one, apart from that idiot Nigel Farage, "speaking" for "us". It's a sad state of affairs

[Otto Dem Wanz]

What even qualifies you as being working class now? 

Honest question.

[David]

13 minutes ago, PowerButchi said:

Which is how I suppose we ended up where we are. A lot of people voted Brexit just because they were sick of elites telling them they're wrong and just not listening to them. Disaffected working class areas were "No platformed" by the political classes and many voted out in protest. What happens now if there were to be another vote or somesuch? Is that just doubling down on their disenchantment and feelings of irrelevancy?

I honestly believe that if there was another vote it would go the same way, perhaps even moreso. The natural reaction when someone is told that they're wrong and it's at least hinted at that they were duped, and were stupid to believe what they did is to clam up and double down, as you say.

For example;

5 minutes ago, Brewster McCloud said:

Usually, it's something fairly trivial, like lower taxes, because that's all people tend to want - the ability to make money and not have their stupid prejudices challenged by The Man. What's interesting about the Brexit is that we've heard a howl from people who don't normally howl. They don't like immigrants, basically for the perceived idea that Polish people are stealing all the bog scrubbing jobs. That's what I've gathered. Before Tony Blair, the left wing working class had a recognisable cause. Now, let's just lash out in fury because we have no one, apart from that idiot Nigel Farage, "speaking" for "us". It's a sad state of affairs

I'm sure that anyone who voted to leave is going to read and hear things similar to this and think "Gosh, this guy who's essentially calling me a fucking moron is right! I'm gonna change my ways! Thanks, man!"

[PowerButchi]

1 minute ago, Brewster McCloud said:

Yes, but what "elites"? What "platform"? There's always been a big nasty government telling the working man how to behave. Let's think about the 1980s when the working class voted for Thatcher in large numbers. Unfortunate, but a fact. A feeling of irrelevancy isn't unique to the working class. It's why people vote in the first place: "Oi, I want this, mister Proime Minister!" Usually, it's something fairly trivial, like lower taxes, because that's all people tend to want - the ability to make money and not have their stupid prejudices challenged by The Man. What's interesting about the Brexit is that we've heard a howl from people who don't normally howl. They don't like immigrants, basically for the perceived idea that Polish people are stealing all the bog scrubbing jobs. That's what I've gathered. Before Tony Blair, the left wing working class had a recognisable cause. Now, let's just lash out in fury because we have no one, apart from that idiot Nigel Farage, "speaking" for "us". It's a sad state of affairs

Just look at the voter turnouts. General election turnouts have been low for quite some time now. Surely that must be down somewhat to feelings of ennui. The referendum turnout was higher than any GE since 1997. Why? Is it the binary question meaning there's more chance of your vote actually mattering? You gothe pubs around my end, a lot of people dont vote as "They're all the same. Innit". Every Tory is a wanker, every Labour politician has been a wanker since Blair. That's the feedback you get there. Several people I know voted out to put mud in the eye of every politician wwho they feel hasn't listened to them since, well, since the mines tbh. That's surely quite clear. It's they whole "They're both two cheeks of the same arse" argument.

[Brewster McCloud]

Reading the Sun.

[PowerButchi]

1 minute ago, Otto Dem Wanz said:

What even qualifies you as being working class now? 

Honest question.

Buying brown sauce.

[Lorne Malvo]

3 minutes ago, Otto Dem Wanz said:

What even qualifies you as being working class now? 

Honest question.

Living near a chippy that does kebabs.

[David]

5 minutes ago, Otto Dem Wanz said:

What even qualifies you as being working class now? 

Honest question.

It used to be supporting West Ham or Liverpool, but even those days are gone.

[David]

31 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

If they argue like you do, Dave, I'm not surprised that's your experience of how arguments end.

This may surprise you, but I actually don't argue with people "in real life." I usually spend my time getting drunk, travelling and enjoying life with family and friends instead. Correcting old people who think the country has gone down the shitter so I can feel intellectually superior ain't all that high on my list.

Edited December 6, 2018 by David

[Brewster McCloud]

Just now, PowerButchi said:

Just look at the voter turnouts. General election turnouts have been low for quite some time now. Surely that must be down somewhat to feelings of ennui. The referendum turnout was higher than any GE since 1997. Why? Is it the binary question meaning there's more chance of your vote actually mattering? You gothe pubs around my end, a lot of people dont vote as "They're all the same. Innit". Every Tory is a wanker, every Labour politician has been a wanker since Blair. That's the feedback you get there. Several people I know voted out to put mud in the eye of every politician wwho they feel hasn't listened to them since, well, since the mines tbh. That's surely quite clear. It's they whole "They're both two cheeks of the same arse" argument.

 

Or perhaps feelings that everything is pretty much OK, and the boat shouldn't be rocked? My personal theory is many people don't vote because they're generally happy with life and they don't have a hill to die on anymore. It's not like the almost pro-wrestling like 80s when you had clear heels and babyfaces. Young people are engaged, they care about shit, but it's the old stonkers in the pub who you mention that are a bit of an issue when it comes to voting. And if people are saying "they're all the fucking same" well, you can blame Blair for that. He just continued what Thatcher did, it was the only way a Labour government would ever get into power. So what do people who see mass immigration taking "their" jobs do? They vote UKIP, cos there's no credible left-wing alternative. 

[Chest Rockwell]

6 minutes ago, PowerButchi said:

Just look at the voter turnouts. General election turnouts have been low for quite some time now. Surely that must be down somewhat to feelings of ennui. The referendum turnout was higher than any GE since 1997. Why? Is it the binary question meaning there's more chance of your vote actually mattering? You gothe pubs around my end, a lot of people dont vote as "They're all the same. Innit". Every Tory is a wanker, every Labour politician has been a wanker since Blair. That's the feedback you get there. Several people I know voted out to put mud in the eye of every politician wwho they feel hasn't listened to them since, well, since the mines tbh. That's surely quite clear. It's they whole "They're both two cheeks of the same arse" argument.

If there was a GE tomorrow I honestly don't know who is vote for. It's all a mess and there's no party that represents my views particularly. But that doesn't mean protest votes aren't stupid.