Random Thoughts III.

[NoUseforaUsername]

I remember reading that Hulk Hogan, renowned for his lack of technical prowess, had to mix it up a bit when wrestling for Japanese audiences, and used to bust out an enziguiri, among other moves, when he wrestled there?

Is that true?

I could've sworn I read it in Power Slam.

[mim731]

It certainly is true. Video here:

 

[big7thletter]

Is Del RIo still with Paige? She used to do tons of pics and statuses' with him on instagram and twitter a few months ago over and over, but looking recently, she hasn't done anything with him on social media for quite some time. Just wondering if the shit ass is still with her?

[BomberPat]

Yeah, Hogan's style was a fair bit more diverse in Japan. It used to be a sign of the typical "smart" fan online in the early '00s, when it was the done thing to rag on Hogan as being a shitty wrestler, for somebody to say, "well actually, in Japan he did an enziguri". When, in reality, the sign that Hulk was a great wrestler was that outside of Japan he didn't need to do an enziguri.

 

On the "heels should be heels" and signing stuff front, I'm in two minds - I love wrestlers staying in character outside of the ring, and think that any time a wrestler is interacting with a fan purely as a fan, they should be "on", they don't want to see the bloke you are when you take the bins out, they want to see the bloke you are on TV. But on the other hand, there's a way to do it and still give the fan a positive experience, and heels still need to sell merchandise and so on, so there's an ulterior motive to have a positive interaction with fans. That said, some of the most fun I've had at shows has been with heels staying in character at the merch table - posing for photos but pulling the grumpiest face imaginable when doing it, or heels teasing/making fun of babyfaces at the table.

[simonworden]

Good point there, it might be fun for the kids if the heels did ham it up, put on a performance to refuse or sulk about it in a very silly way. Go fucking panto about it "oh I hate kids, I hate them so much but I have to do these photos and signings or the company cuts my paycheck" or have them be a bit cheeky to the parents. Although from some full on WWE families i've seen on our shores that could go horribly wrong. 

[theringmaster]

WWE released a Hogan DVD a few years back with rare and unseen matches from his early days, he cranks out all kinds of moves if i remember correctly.

For a man who became the king of using the same 4 moves every match he really did have a lot in his Arsenal, the greatest example of 'just because you can do moves doesn't mean you should' (Please take note every indy guy doing Candian Destroyers every match)

[HarmonicGenerator]

Reminds me of the argument you'd see on forums all the time in the early/mid 00s of 'Big Show is so shit now, he used to be good when he was the Giant because he could do a moonsault', completely missing the point that it didn't matter if he could or not - that's the last move anybody of his size should ever be doing. I'm so glad this place exists, I don't think I could cope in a community where your quality as a wrestler is judged by how many different moves you do. 

Edited November 6, 2017 by HarmonicGenerator

[BomberPat]

8 minutes ago, theringmaster said:

the greatest example of 'just because you can do moves doesn't mean you should' (Please take note every indy guy doing Candian Destroyers every match)

Absolutely. When I saw Pentagon Jr for Fight Club Pro earlier in the year, I remember thinking that here's a guy with more of an aura around him than anyone I've seen in years, he just feels like something special - he gets more of a response for removing his glove to prepare for a chop than most guys were getting for their biggest moves, he's the kind of wrestler who can get away with keeping it simple, and only doing exactly what's needed. Five minutes later, he's hitting Canadian Destroyers on the ring apron and launching himself into the audience. Blah.

I used to find myself at training sessions just stood on the edge of the ring watching guys string a match together and constantly saying, "why did you do that move?". My logic is that if you can't justify why you've done something, it's probably best not to do it. And it works both ways - if I tell you that you shouldn't have done something, and you tell me that, actually, it's because it's a callback to your previous match with this opponent, and it plays into the finishing sequence, and it all makes perfect sense, then I'm the dickhead, go ahead.

[tiger_rick]

2 minutes ago, theringmaster said:

the greatest example of 'just because you can do moves doesn't mean you should' (Please take note every indy guy doing Candian Destroyers every match)

While there is obviously a lot to be said for this, it's easier when you're as charismatic as Hogan and people care about you. We've seen this discussed on every shoot interview ever made and it stands up in some cases but isn't a catch all scenario.

There are tons of guys who, if they worked smarter, just wouldn't get noticed. But what really does make me chuckle when you hear these veterens talking about how these kids now can't work. Then you think of the likes of Dino Bravo, Iron Sheik, Nikolai Volkoff, IRS, etc, etc and the fucking borefests they'd have every week and honestly, give me some tit who doesn't know how to work jumping about and doing movez over that shit.

[BomberPat]

Yeah, it's the three ring circus metaphor - if you don't like the clowns, stick around for the acrobats. As much as my post probably made me come across like a grumpy Cornette type, I don't mind a movez-fest in the right context, and there's room in wrestling to accommodate all sorts. Like you said, you can get away with 4 moves if you've got Hogan charisma, sometimes you need something else to make you stand out, and that something else might be a Canadian Destroyer off the top rope or whatever - whatever makes you money, it's all good.

That said, I still think there's a lot to be said for slowing down and making things count. Even in a 60 mile per second movez-fest, you can make everything mean something, and I don't think I've met an experienced wrestler yet who wouldn't tell you that the best advice they ever got, and the one piece of advice they wished they'd listened too sooner, was "slow down". Best explanation I ever got is that, when you do a big flashy move, say you do a 450 Splash or whatever, the reaction you want is for the kid in the crowd to turn to his dad and say "DID YOU SEE THAT?!" - but if you immediately follow it up with a standing Shooting Star Press, that same kid misses it, because he's turned away from the action in that split-second to react to the first big flashy move. Giving just that tiny bit of extra time makes the move mean so much more.

 

On the topic of the likes of Dino Bravo, I had a seminar with Mike Quackenbush a couple of years back, and he said that when he was starting out, every show he worked was headlined by something like Tito Santana vs. Greg Valentine. Every match was old-timers having the same match they'd had for thirty years, with the same five or six basic moves. And, if the old-timers saw the younger guys in the ring before the show, practicing anything, they would berate them for it - if you didn't just go out and call it on the fly, you "didn't know how to work". Quack's logic was that it's not that younger talent didn't know how to work, but that the nature of wrestling has just evolved through wider exposure to different styles and ideas, so there are more moves available to us now than there used to be - Santana and Valentine could go out there and call everything on the fly, because there was only a small, finite number of moves or spots that they could possibly call to one another, whereas, say, a Ricochet/Will Ospreay match couldn't possibly be worked in the same way.

 

I'm sure there was a point to all this somewhere.

[tiger_rick]

7 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

That said, I still think there's a lot to be said for slowing down and making things count. Even in a 60 mile per second movez-fest, you can make everything mean something, and I don't think I've met an experienced wrestler yet who wouldn't tell you that the best advice they ever got, and the one piece of advice they wished they'd listened too sooner, was "slow down". Best explanation I ever got is that, when you do a big flashy move, say you do a 450 Splash or whatever, the reaction you want is for the kid in the crowd to turn to his dad and say "DID YOU SEE THAT?!" - but if you immediately follow it up with a standing Shooting Star Press, that same kid misses it, because he's turned away from the action in that split-second to react to the first big flashy move. Giving just that tiny bit of extra time makes the move mean so much more.

I appreciate this and I was being a tiny bit facetious. I do think there is a big divide though between working for the big company where pacing, telling the story and making things matter is vastly different to working on the indy scene where you just want to be noticed by the big company. Everyone is guitly of wanking over the moves guy on the smaller shows. Whether that's the flashy dude jumping around like Amazing Red back in the day or Lio Rush now or the big guy chucking people around or showing that he can throw a drop kick or a hit a moonsault and demonstrating his mobility - that sort of stuff stands out. That's why they need NXT. If all these guys worked the way WWE wanted in the first place, there'd be less need for a finishing school.

I think it's the same with anything. Most people would go to a non-league football match and be impressed by the guy who scores the goals. But a scout will take note of the guy who's putting them on a plate or the people who are keeping them out.

7 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

I'm sure there was a point to all this somewhere.

I hope not, this is the random thoughts thread.

[PSF]

2 hours ago, BomberPat said:

 they don't want to see the bloke you are when you take the bins out, they want to see the bloke you are on TV.

Sometimes thats one and the same.

Edited November 6, 2017 by PSF

[Polish Dad]

I've never really understood the "All heels have to hate fans" thing in the first place.

Like, yeah, Baron Corbin's a 'lone wolf' dickhead and probably despises all social interaction, but Kevin Owens' whole thing is that his in-ring actions are justified because he's here to make money for his family & kids. Winning is more important to him than being liked, but that doesn't mean he hates being liked.

The Miz, recently, was a great example of this. He was in one of our stores up in Glasgow, being nice to the fans, really engaging, happy, and looked to be having a great time and it never feels incongruous because he's a heel who wants to be admired. Why wouldn't he be ecstatic to be surrounded by people who are giving him the movie star adoration he believes he deserves?
 

[Merzbow]

2 minutes ago, Polish Dad said:

I've never really understood the "All heels have to hate fans" thing in the first place.

Like, yeah, Baron Corbin's a 'lone wolf' dickhead and probably despises all social interaction, but Kevin Owens' whole thing is that his in-ring actions are justified because he's here to make money for his family & kids. Winning is more important to him than being liked, but that doesn't mean he hates being liked.

The Miz, recently, was a great example of this. He was in one of our stores up in Glasgow, being nice to the fans, really engaging, happy, and looked to be having a great time and it never feels incongruous because he's a heel who wants to be admired. Why wouldn't he be ecstatic to be surrounded by people who are giving him the movie star adoration he believes he deserves?
 

He also believes these people are far beneath him, the great unwashed. He want's them to recognise his greatness but he'd want fuck all to do with them.

[Polish Dad]

It's not like they were asking him to go for a Five Guys with them, he's signing an autograph and then moving on. Feel like there's a difference between playing a heel & just being a twat.