Game of Thrones: book thread

[air_raid]

I'm sticking with Jon for your third rider. The nephew Dany didn't know she had.

 

The more popular one is that Aerys was Tyrion's Dad, and Tywin knew it which is why he never accepted him and flat out refused to give him Casterly Rock.

 

If Tyrion had not been his and he'd known, he'd have killed him. Tywin Lannister was not known for his mercy.

[unfitfinlay]

I'm sticking with Jon for your third rider. The nephew Dany didn't know she had.

 

The more popular one is that Aerys was Tyrion's Dad, and Tywin knew it which is why he never accepted him and flat out refused to give him Casterly Rock.

 

If Tyrion had not been his and he'd known, he'd have killed him. Tywin Lannister was not known for his mercy.

 

He wasn't really the type to acknowledge a slight either. Aerys was flat out provoking him when he refused to marry Cersei to Rhaegar ("You're my servant") and also when he cut Ilyn Payne's tounge out for saying Tywin really ruled the Seven Kingdoms. What did Tywin do? Fuck all. He bottled his rage up and unleashed it when he could. Really, if Aerys did rape Joanna and Tywin found out about it, what was he going to do? Rebel against the Crown, on his own, with no support? Or wait until the right opportunity to get his revenge? He could've killed Tyrion right enough but Tyrion's disfigurement was well known and his death would lead to both Tywin being branded a Kinslayer and Aerys fucking pishing himself even more than he already was.

 

Also, Tywin flat out tells Tyrion that he only allows him parade around as his son because he can't prove otherwise. Tywin genuinely loved Joanna so if he doesn't suspect that Tyrion is the product of Aerys, a known rapist who we know ordered his Lords to bring their wives to his bed just to prove a point, then who does he suspect is Tyrions's real father?

 

I wasn't being serious about those picks for Dragon riders. I was just pointing out that those are the only the apparent Targaryen descendants in the series, though obviously Aegon isn't exactly confirmed. Jon's almost certainly Rhaegar and Lyanna's son but if Aegon's real then Jon's entire story goes from him being the Bastard who was actually the rightful King to to the Bastard who was actually the rightful King's younger half brother. Which is a bit of a shite pay off really isn't it?

 

For me, there has to be a reveal of at least one more "secret" Targaryen or its going to be a disappointment up there with the last series of Lost.

[Magnum]

Cheers for the forum recommendation. After a cursory browse, it's bizarre (to me anyway) how many people on there seem aghast at the idea of either Jon or Dany getting the win at the end because they're so married to the idea of Martin subverting expectations at every turn. I'll be seriously pissed off if we end up with some shite like Littlefinger and Sansa ruling the kingdoms or the Others killing everyone. It doesn't necessarily have to be a feelgood ending, but it does need to feel like something of a payoff for what we've invested in those characters over a zillion pages* I can't help comparing it to good wrestling booking - the heel can get the win in a few minor PPVs and put a few good guys out of commission along the way, but if the babyface doesn't get his big comeback at Wrestlemania, you've fucked the story up.

 

*I'm perfectly willing to accept an ending where Roose Bolton ends up as king of everything.

[air_raid]

The problem with any of this "secret parentage" business is anyone being able to verify the real parentage. If a child was born of a theoretical rape of Joanna Lannister - and I maintain had Lord Tywin suspected this he would have killed the infant and the rest of the world would have heard "stillborn" or "born weak and died" and nobody would have ever known the truth - then who the hell would know the truth and therefore reveal this truth in a later book? Not the sort of thing you'd want bandied around. Other than mutterings of the smallfolk, who would be privy to this information close to the family with any credibility or public voice? Kevan? Dead. Pycelle? Dead. Varys? He would never speak up and cast aspersions as to the bloodline of a Lannister, it would mean certain death. Plus, it cheapens Tyrion's story dramatically if after the whole father/son relationship/acceptance angst, he wasn't his father at all.

 

At least with Jon there is a chance that Lord Eddard trusted his brother Benjen with the truth of their sister's progeny, and should Coldhands turn out to be him, we could end up hearing about it.

 

I'll be seriously pissed off if we end up with some shite like Littlefinger and Sansa ruling the kingdoms or the Others killing everyone.

 

I've long assumed that the title of A Song Of Ice And Fire referred to the battle between dragons' fire and the Others from the icy North, which would be won by dragons shortly before Dany takes her throne. We'll find some unfortunate way to kill Aegon, and then she can marry Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell.

[unfitfinlay]

The problem with any of this "secret parentage" business is anyone being able to verify the real parentage. If a child was born of a theoretical rape of Joanna Lannister - and I maintain had Lord Tywin suspected this he would have killed the infant and the rest of the world would have heard "stillborn" or "born weak and died" and nobody would have ever known the truth - then who the hell would know the truth and therefore reveal this truth in a later book?

Aerys had no problem raping Rhaella in the presence of his Kingsguard (well, they were outside the room) and he seems the type who would get off on others knowing what he did to Joanna. Especially if they were sworn to secrecy.If one of Dany's dragons either allows Tyrion to ride them or tries, and fails, to burn him then Barristan might be able to put two and two together.I think you might be underestimating the stigma of Kinslaying a bit. In the Dunk and Egg series, Bloodraven is a great Hand but he's absolutely despised for killing his half brother Daemon to the end the first Blackfyre Rebellion. When there's a really bad drought, the people believe that they are cursed for allowing a Kinslayer to lead them. If Tyrion had died at birth, Tywin would've got the same treatment, whether he'd actually killed him or not.

At least with Jon there is a chance that Lord Eddard trusted his brother Benjen with the truth of their sister's progeny, and should Coldhands turn out to be him, we could end up hearing about it.

Nah. I think, if Ned was going to trust anybody with the secret, it would've been Cat. It doesn't really matter though because Howland Reed (Meera and Jojen's Dad) fought at the Tower of Joy with Ned and definitely knows the truth. He'll also likely be heading North trying to find his kids so his path could easily cross with Jon's.

Cheers for the forum recommendation. After a cursory browse, it's bizarre (to me anyway) how many people on there seem aghast at the idea of either Jon or Dany getting the win at the end because they're so married to the idea of Martin subverting expectations at every turn. I'll be seriously pissed off if we end up with some shite like Littlefinger and Sansa ruling the kingdoms or the Others killing everyone. It doesn't necessarily have to be a feelgood ending, but it does need to feel like something of a payoff for what we've invested in those characters over a zillion pages* I can't help comparing it to good wrestling booking - the heel can get the win in a few minor PPVs and put a few good guys out of commission along the way, but if the babyface doesn't get his big comeback at Wrestlemania, you've fucked the story up.

I agree totally. I love the series but it, and even at least some individual character arcs, need a satisfying ending or it's all a bit pointless. I can live without Sam confronting and proving his manhood to his Dad but if Jon never finds out who his Mother is or she turns out to be a fishwife or something, it could well ruin the whole series for me.

[Nick James]

Trying not to read anything in this thread, but didn't want to start up a 'books' discussion in the TV pace thread.

 

I've just started reading the books (just up to Arya escaping Kings Landing in the first book), would you say it'd be better to catch up with TV then stop reading? I'm loving the shocks of the TV show and I'm worried that it wouldn't be the same reaction while reading the books.

[LaGoosh]

The show is nearly up to date with the books now (I imagine they'll be completely caught up by the end of season 5). Just read till the end of book 3.

[Astro Hollywood]

The show is nearly up to date with the books now (I imagine they'll be completely caught up by the end of season 5). Just read till the end of book 3.

 

Absolutely no way.

[Lion_of_the_Midlands]

As Astro says, no way. But it is getting a little bit more complicated now. Some of the storyline we are currently seeing is out of Dance Of Dragon's, most is out of Storm Of Swords and some has no direct links to the book at all. There is no way though that Feast For Crows gets done in 1 season though, and I would imagine that the next 4 or possibly 5 seasons will be needed for Feast and Dance because they happened more or less concurrently in "Westeros Time"

 

If you want to keep getting the surprises from the show, don't read the books

[LaGoosh]

The show is nearly up to date with the books now (I imagine they'll be completely caught up by the end of season 5). Just read till the end of book 3.

 

Absolutely no way.

 

I see absolutely no reason why not.

 

Feast For Crows and Dance With Dragons are long but they are filled to the brim with stuff that can and most likely will be cut from the show. It also has no resolution to any of the storylines and very few big moments that could be used for season enders. If they cut all the shitty bulk out of them they would make one really, really fucking great season...if they spread it out over two seasons I'm not so sure. How would they spread Jamie's, Brienne's, Bran's, Arya and Sansa's storylines over two seasons? They would have to create masses of new material for it to work. And it's not like there are big moments like the Red Wedding halfway through those books for them to use as an end point for season 5.

 

Also, the producers have already said that there will probably only be 7 (possibly 8) seasons. If Feast and Dance takes up seasons 5 and 6 that means they will have to wrap up the rest of the story (2 whole books that won't even be out by that point) in probably one season. It'd be a total disaster. I defininitely see them finishing Feast and Crows up in season 5 or doing massive reworking to all the storylines to drag them out but still make them entertaining for TV.

[Guy Bifkin]

I'd like to see them try a Spartacus style prequel for a season when they catch up with Martin.

[gmoney]

I'd love to see a prequel set during Robert's Rebellion.

[LaGoosh]

It's a nice idea in theory but will sadly never happen. Or not until the current series finishes anyway. I wouldn't be suprised if HBO did more with the Game Of Thrones world later down the line.

 

It'll be a shame if the show overtakes the books but it seems inevitable really but Martin has no excuse really. He seems to be spend so much time arsing about with other stuff, such as writing the massive A World Of Fire & Ice book that no one gives a shit about.

[deathrey]

Sometimes it feels like he had no idea where he wants the books to go so just stopped writing.

[MoKonjic]

Where do we think the current series will end?

 

I'm thinking the next episode ends with Tyrion killing Tywin and escaping, possibly a bit with him arriving in Pentos in the last episode.

 

I think The Hound will "die" in Episode ten, with Arya boarding a ship to Bravos.

 

Will we get the attack on the wall with the save from Stannis?

 

For some reason I think the series end will be Brienne and Pod being caught and the reveal of Cat Starks new form.

 

Once all the above is done, I see all of series five being book stuff, but during six we will start to finish off the books and get spoilers ourselves.