UFC 251: Usman vs Masvidal - Jul 11 🇦🇪 🏝🌴

[sukhy]

20 minutes ago, David said:

Don't apologise. But, you're making the same mistake Ebb is making. You're looking at this from a marketability/popularity as a fighter viewpoint. This has next to nothing to do with how Usman does in his fights. I'm not saying he's great at trash-talk or anything like that.

I'm saying that he's a very intelligent, articulate, and engaging person outside the cage. He's a family man. He's not being accused of rape or hitting women. Yet, he's deemed unlikeable.

Here's a perfect example of the kind of thing I'm talking about.

Compare the difference in attitude towards Conor McGregor flashing his cash, strutting around in expensive suits and posting photos of himself with stacks of money and flash cars and Floyd Mayweather doing the same. 

 

I get your point, but I think there are so many ufc fighters out there, and we only really get limited time with them, press conferences, interviews etc, and if you don't stand out or have a big core audience, it's easy for them to just go by the wayside. And I think that's what has happened to Kamaru. 

Ben Askren was talking about Kamaru on Helwani's show and he makes some great points:

And when you have guys like Masvidal and Askren, talking about your personality, alot of people will listen to them and carry that on board, just because they both have that x factor and are pretty charismatic. 

 

Conor and Floyd both get pelters for being annoying. I saw plenty of people not wanting Conor to beat Floyd because they didn't like Conor, even though they were doing the same shtick, and I have no idea how people could even make a choice out of the 2 considering they are 2 sames of the same coin. 

[Carbomb]

55 minutes ago, kamicazze said:

I would disagree with the unlikable comment. He probably has gone with unlikable as opposed to likeable. People aren't rooting for him to lose, nor are they rooting for him to win. The times they care is when one of their favourites is in the opposing corner, or someone they dislike such as Colby. 

if you're not offended, you're trolling. You've reverted to calling me a twat to attempt to get a reaction. 

If you're an Usman fan fair enough, maybe be open minded and diverse enough in modern day culture to think others have a different opinion to you and that's okay.

You were the one who waded in with the snide "cancel culture woke brigade" comment. You throw that at someone like David, you're going to get it back, so complaining about trolling when you did the exact same thing is a bit rich.

This discussion has either reached a level of confusion or descended into intellectual dishonesty: nobody is talking about the potential racial issues in why Usman is uninspiring, it's about his supposed "unlikability". There is a massive difference between the two, and nobody here is disputing that people might find him boring. We've discussed this plenty of times.

Here is where the problem lies: you guys think that, unless the language being used is overt and directly racist, using the n-word and whatnot, it can't be racism. That is entirely down to your experiences, which do not include those of black people.

The experiences of black people, and other ethnic minorities, have taught them to read between the lines, not because they want to be offended (and the idea that anyone would want to be offended is fucking idiotic), but because a lot of racism and the violence associated with it starts with lots of little things, and, simply put, if you're a black person in America, if you don't learn quickly to spot the little things and avoid them or shut them down, you may die. No exaggeration. Same with Jews as well - the reason they're so hot on dog-whistle terms that seem otherwise innocuous or trivial is because they've learned, from bitter experience, that the racists don't come for you straight away, they come for you indirectly, little by little at first.

The reason why people on here are debating the nature of why Usman might be disliked is because we've seen this all before, throughout all spheres of society. It's always the little things, like complaining about "woke culture" when a black person gets cast in a main role in a film, or when there's a gay character featured in a comic. We're not focusing on it for nothing - history is on our side in this particular argument, because there is a shit-ton of precedent to tell us that these little things are almost always followed by big things. 

And if that's not enough for you, I draw your attention to the big things going on right now. Do you think these are in isolation, unaccompanied by whispers, inferences, insinuations, dog-whistles, and micro-aggressions? 

As for Jon Jones - when he started, before people knew what a fucking car-crash he is, I remember specifically people on here and on Twitter calling him "slimy". He was your "good little black man", being humble and religious, not getting "uppity", and he still had those whispers about him.

[Hannibal Scorch]

2 hours ago, kamicazze said:

He probably has gone with unlikable as opposed to likeable.

[Egg Shen]

2 hours ago, David said:

 

And it's not about anyone being a superstar. I'm not debating the marketability of these guys. See, this is why I think you don't actually know what we're talking about. This isn't a "how many buy rates can this guy bring in?" discussion.

this is my last post on it, but you are right i'm probably not looking at from same viewpoint because the viewpoint you have wasn't even in my train of thought when I made that first post. My initial post said Usman had the bad combination of having a boring in ring style, along with a having a fairly unlikeable personality.

Now, again take the word unlikeable out if it, because it was a poor choice of word and that's been addressed (Keith even stressed "unremarkable" would have been a better term to use and i fully agree.) In my very next post I actually clarified what i meant. Its simply that Usman hasn't made that connection with the fanbase to make him a true star, and that I wasn't sure why that hadn't happened.

When I say I haven't warmed to him, its not a personal thing, its most certainly isn't a race thing. Its purely from the perspective of a sports fan who spends time following the sport to be entertained. Carry on the argument if you like, I won't be a part of it.

Have a good day 👍🏻

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by Egg Shen

[jimufctna24]

Some have fuzzy memories about GSP and Jones.

GSP wasn't embraced as quickly as some remember. In fact, a large proportion of the MMA fanbase actually supported Hughes over him in the mid-2000s. Possibly because Hughes was a Yank and GSP was a French-Canadian. 

There were also many who resented Jones' rise to the top. Partially because he used to talk like he was reading from a self-help book when he first arrived on the scene. It didn't come across as genuine and rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. But also, partially because of his race. Some of those close to the sport at the time, most notably Jordan Breen and Luke Thomas, wrote that a lot of fans didn't like him simply because he was black. And given the extreme racial divide in America that existed at the time, and for which sadly exists to this day, it isn't hard to believe them. Especially given that there was at least one incident in the late 2000s where the press section could hear racial slurs being directed at a black fighter. 

Edited July 14, 2020 by jimufctna24

[Keith Houchen]

6 minutes ago, jimufctna24 said:

Especially given that there was at least one incident in the late 2000s where the press section could hear racial slurs being directed at a black fighter. 

In my mind, it was GAD. 

[David]

1 hour ago, Carbomb said:

This discussion has either reached a level of confusion or descended into intellectual dishonesty: nobody is talking about the potential racial issues in why Usman is uninspiring, it's about his supposed "unlikability". There is a massive difference between the two, and nobody here is disputing that people might find him boring. We've discussed this plenty of times.

Here is where the problem lies: you guys think that, unless the language being used is overt and directly racist, using the n-word and whatnot, it can't be racism. That is entirely down to your experiences, which do not include those of black people.

This comment here sums the whole thing up for me. This is the very crux of the whole debate.

It's not about claiming that posters like @Egg Shen are racist, because I don't for a second think he is. I think he's not getting the whole point I was making, but missing the point isn't the same as condoning the actions of those who attack people like Woodley and Usman based on their race.

As I mentioned previously, I took umbrage at two distinct points. First, the dismissal that the way Usman is talked about could be related to race, and second, that unless actual racist language has been used there is no racism.

It's as simple as that. And to be honest, anyone who's posted on here long enough knows I'm far from a bleeding-heart "woke" liberal. But this situation is pretty fucking clear for anyone to see if they read between the lines as C-Bomb says. 

It ain't rocket science.

1 hour ago, sukhy said:

I get your point, but I think there are so many ufc fighters out there, and we only really get limited time with them, press conferences, interviews etc, and if you don't stand out or have a big core audience, it's easy for them to just go by the wayside. And I think that's what has happened to Kamaru. 

But I'm not talking about Usman going by the wayside. I fully understand that he'll never be a star in the traditional MMA sense because of the narrow viewpoint of what fans of the sport want to see in a so-called star. 

Which brings me to...

1 hour ago, sukhy said:

Ben Askren was talking about Kamaru on Helwani's show and he makes some great points:

Fans don't like Usman because he developed a persona. 

Okay, so if he doesn't stand out he can't become a star. But, if he tries to be a bit more outspoken and "develop a persona" the fans won't like him for it. How can a guy like Usman win then? 

Also, if anyone thinks that Masvidal, McGregor, Askren, Sonnen, Nate and so on didn't "develop a persona" they're flat-out wrong. Of course they did. Sonnen built his entire fanbase on being racially and culturally offensive, yet he's looked at favourably.

Go back to Sonnen's earlier days in MMA and he was basically Matt Lindland with hair.

McGregor is much the same, although he has a sinister, disturbing side to his persona as well, just for good measure. The fans love him for it.

But Usman adding a little flavour to his persona is too far? That's where the MMA fans draw the line, is it? Same as with Woodley I'm guessing? It's okay to punch people in bars and smash up fans phones, but try to rap (badly, admittedly) or even worse, speak out about racism, and you're the fucking devil?

Come on. What certain aspects of the MMA fanbase don't like about the Usman's and the Woodley's is that they won titles, and they "got above their station."

Same as what's happened with Ngannou. Everyone loved the big oaf when he was just keeping his head down, knocking people out, smiling for the cameras and showing appreciation for everything America and Europe has given him.

As soon as he mentioned the BLM situation he got shat on. Stay in your lane, Francis! 

[Carbomb]

Yeh, just to re-iterate: @Egg Shen, I am not saying you're a racist either, I don't believe for one second you are one. Just want to make sure that's clear.

[sukhy]

20 minutes ago, David said:

But I'm not talking about Usman going by the wayside. I fully understand that he'll never be a star in the traditional MMA sense because of the narrow viewpoint of what fans of the sport want to see in a so-called star. 

Which brings me to...

Fans don't like Usman because he developed a persona. 

Okay, so if he doesn't stand out he can't become a star. But, if he tries to be a bit more outspoken and "develop a persona" the fans won't like him for it. How can a guy like Usman win then? 

Also, if anyone thinks that Masvidal, McGregor, Askren, Sonnen, Nate and so on didn't "develop a persona" they're flat-out wrong. Of course they did. Sonnen built his entire fanbase on being racially and culturally offensive, yet he's looked at favourably.

Go back to Sonnen's earlier days in MMA and he was basically Matt Lindland with hair.

McGregor is much the same, although he has a sinister, disturbing side to his persona as well, just for good measure. The fans love him for it.

But Usman adding a little flavour to his persona is too far? That's where the MMA fans draw the line, is it? Same as with Woodley I'm guessing? It's okay to punch people in bars and smash up fans phones, but try to rap (badly, admittedly) or even worse, speak out about racism, and you're the fucking devil?

Come on. What certain aspects of the MMA fanbase don't like about the Usman's and the Woodley's is that they won titles, and they "got above their station."

Same as what's happened with Ngannou. Everyone loved the big oaf when he was just keeping his head down, knocking people out, smiling for the cameras and showing appreciation for everything America and Europe has given him.

As soon as he mentioned the BLM situation he got shat on. Stay in your lane, Francis! 

I understand your points, the need for people to seemingly want to tear down successful black people is there in sports, I.E Souness and Paul Pogba, but I just don't see it with Kamaru to be honest. 

The personality comments come from big names like Masvidal and Askren, that's why they seem to have had such an affect on his popularity. 

Diaz bros, Conor, Masvidal etc have all turned it up when they are in front of the cameras, but they all have a history of their personality being on show in front of the cameras, and they don't seem to have changed much or at all in the case of the Diaz bros.

The Ngannou stuff I can't comment on, because I haven't seen it, but if it's just from twitter comments, I wouldn't take too much stock from that, because people are morons on twitter and Instagram. 

[neil]

I'd probably chalk up most of the last 10,000 words in this thread as "implicit bias". You should all take a look at that if you're not familiar, and then if you want to continue discussing that or racism in MMA start a new thread.

[wandshogun09]

Just read that Covington vs Woodley might be in the works. Maybe I’m a Woodley fan after all. 

[Egg Shen]

If they do go with Usman/Burns next and then do Woodley/Covington.

Where does that leave Leon Edwards again?

[Cousin Jim Bob]

48 minutes ago, Egg Shen said:

If they do go with Usman/Burns next and then do Woodley/Covington.

Where does that leave Leon Edwards again?

 

In a sane world fighting Masvidal in a really good main event fight with an obvious backstory, but Jorge thinks he is now a cross between Floyd Mayweather and Tony Montana. So would probably say no.

[SBD]

 

[Egg Shen]

2 hours ago, Cousin Jim Bob said:

 

In a sane world fighting Masvidal in a really good main event fight with an obvious backstory, but Jorge thinks he is now a cross between Floyd Mayweather and Tony Montana. 

I liked Helwani's idea of having Usman sit out and rest and have Burns/Edwards fight for the legit. no. 1 contender spot then have the winner face Usman late this year/early next. It's harsh because of two men who have rightfully earned and been granted title shots, one has to miss out.

Masvidal/Edwards I like too, i just cant see the UFC or Masvidal going for it at this point though. Post-Darren Till it was the fight to make but things have changed.

Edwards/Chiesa? bit of a curveball.