UFC 251: Usman vs Masvidal - Jul 11 🇦🇪 🏝🌴

[Egg Shen]

9 hours ago, Shane O' Mac Version 2 said:

I'll say that a large segment of the MMA fanbase definitely base their opinions of fighters on race- shit, go to America and speak to some people and you'll hear some pretty damning things from certain parts of the population. I wouldn't lump Ebb in there though. Not EVERYONE who has something negative to say about a fighter of colour is automatically racist- I think that's where some of the animosity towards Woodley came in- he set a record for the least amount of strikes ever thrown in a UFC title fight, but he seemed to think anyone criticising him was doing it from a racially motivated POV. Not to say he doesn't get racist attacks from some scumbags, but I think a man of any colour would face some pretty heavy criticism for a fight like that.

Maybe you are right Shane. Maybe its because im speaking from the outside perspective of a Welshman who's never stepped foot in America? But i follow MMA daily, I have done for close to 20 years, and I dont recall race ever really being a reason for an MMA fighter being held back in terms of popularity, nor in boxing for that matter. Im not saying it doesn't exist however, and im not saying you won't find nasty, trolling type stuff on social media because unfortunately you will. There are far too many examples of extremely popular black MMA fighters for me to believe its the main reason Usman is not clicking with the fanbase though.

If you listed the top 10 most popular fighters in the UFC in 2020, for my money at least half would be black, why is Kamaru Usman an exception? explain that to me and i'll accept it. 

My only point here, is that I still believe main reason Kamaru Usman is not as popular as he should be is because 90% of his UFC fights have been boring from a viewing perspective and that he's not got the type of personality that leaps off the screen and hooks peoples attention, that is it.

I apologise again if any lf this conversation caused offence and touched any buttons, but I do not appreciate David snidely insinuating that if i can't see it, then i must be a part of the problem.

 

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by Egg Shen

[kamicazze]

I agree with Eggshen - Usman is uninspiring. You could say it's down to his style, maybe the manner of his performances or even his personality. I don't think people dislike him, nor do they like him and therein lies the problem - they're indifferent to him. People hate Colby Colvington but they'll pay to watch in the hope of seeing him get what's coming to him.

Don't feel it's a race thing either. Cormier for years treaded water, yet when he started doing commentary, showed emotion post fight and did the chicken jingle a lot of people suddenly warmed to him.

Usman's respectful personality isn't that different to GSP - yet what everyone remembers with GSP is he was exciting early on then adapted and his level of dedication along with being a complete martial artist. 

Stylebender engages me completely, his style, personality and the way he carries himself just pulls me in a bit more. 

I don't feel you need to apologise Eggshen, if someone is offended then that's their issue. You have a right to your opinion, and the cancel culture woke brigade shouldn't try guilt trip people into agreeing with them. 

[David]

10 hours ago, Egg Shen said:

(and whilst you're there, go read the replies, there actually 250+ people in that discussion and i couldnt see one racially focussed tweet amongst them, lots of negative stuff about hugging and foot stomping though).

See, this is why I keep pulling you up on this. Do you think racism is just a case of someone posting specifically about him being black? So, because no one actually makes an overt racist comment it means there's no racism in the thread, right?

Wrong. So fucking wrong.

My point is, people are levelling criticism at him that wouldn't be thrown at a white fighter. Remember, this is the same guy who put on a barnburner of a fight in the bout previous to this one. It was a top five fight of the year for sure. 

The GSP comparison is a terrific one, especially from an "outside the cage" personality standpoint. Which is where the issue here is. His personality outside the cage.

Both fighters are consumate professionals. Well-spoken, intelligent, disarming and incredibly engaging when being interviewed.

The difference? Everyone refers to GSP as a "nice guy" and the kind of guy you'd love for your daughter to bring home. What a representative for the sport, right? Top class through and through.

And that's all correct. GSP is all of those things.

But Usman? Let's look at his history, shall we? Born in Nigeria, spent much of his younger years carrying water for miles to his home so he and his family could have clean drinking water. He then arrived in the US as a young kid and went on to be an NCAA Division II All-American on three separate occasions. 

Just like GSP he's a "nice guy" and a hell of a representative for the sport. 

The difference, though, is that Usman isn't looked at like GSP outside the cage, is he? As you said:

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As for the GSP comparison, unlike GSP, Usman has the unfortunate combination of not being overly exciting in the cage as well as being fairly unlikeable as a personality out of it for whatever reason.

Quote

i haven't particularly warmed to Usman either, and i can't necessarily tell you why? 

So it was you who brought up the point that despite both fighters being very nice, approachable dudes outside the cage, one of them is likeable, while one isn't. 

Not only is he not overly likeable, but he's actually unlikeable. 

Your words, not mines. And you then say you haven't warmed to him, but you don't know why. 

And I did give you the benefit of the doubt earlier on, but as the conversation has progressed you've shown that you're either being wilfully ignorant, or you're just not very bright, unfortunately.

[David]

1 minute ago, kamicazze said:

I don't feel you need to apologise Eggshen, if someone is offended then that's their issue. You have a right to your opinion, and the cancel culture woke brigade shouldn't try guilt trip people into agreeing with them.

I was wondering when the discussion would pull some of the twats out the woodwork.

Here we have exhibit number one. 

If someone is offended it isn't their issue, it's the issue of the person being fucking offensive. And for the record, I'm far from offended. 

3 minutes ago, kamicazze said:

I agree with Eggshen - Usman is uninspiring. You could say it's down to his style, maybe the manner of his performances or even his personality. I don't think people dislike him, nor do they like him and therein lies the problem - they're indifferent to him.

But Ebb never said people were indifferent to Usman, he said he was "unlikeable." Big fucking difference, chief.

4 minutes ago, kamicazze said:

Usman's respectful personality isn't that different to GSP - yet what everyone remembers with GSP is he was exciting early on then adapted and his level of dedication along with being a complete martial artist.

So, Usman not being exciting for a few fights inside the cage is what makes him unlikeable outside the cage? Sounds legit.

[Egg Shen]

5 minutes ago, David said:

 

But Ebb never said people were indifferent to Usman, he said he was "unlikeable." Big fucking difference, chief.

 

and we clarified it was the wrong word to use later in the thread.

 

[kamicazze]

I would disagree with the unlikable comment. He probably has gone with unlikable as opposed to likeable. People aren't rooting for him to lose, nor are they rooting for him to win. The times they care is when one of their favourites is in the opposing corner, or someone they dislike such as Colby. 

if you're not offended, you're trolling. You've reverted to calling me a twat to attempt to get a reaction. 

If you're an Usman fan fair enough, maybe be open minded and diverse enough in modern day culture to think others have a different opinion to you and that's okay.

[Dead Mike]

25 minutes ago, kamicazze said:

 You have a right to your opinion, and the cancel culture woke brigade shouldn't try guilt trip people into agreeing with them. 

Do I have the right to call you a thick bellend? If so, you're a thick bellend.

[Egg Shen]

23 minutes ago, David said:

 

But Usman? Let's look at his history, shall we? Born in Nigeria, spent much of his younger years carrying water for miles to his home so he and his family could have clean drinking water. He then arrived in the US as a young kid and went on to be an NCAA Division II All-American on three separate occasions. 

Just like GSP he's a "nice guy" and a hell of a representative for the sport. 

The difference, though, is that Usman isn't looked at like GSP outside the cage, is he? 

But then there's Francis Ngannou, born in Cameroon. Overcame poverty and hardship to make it to the UFC and become the most popular fighter in the heavyweight division.

Then there's Israel Adesanya. Born in Nigeria, moved to New Zealand, became a world class kickboxer then rose to prominence against the odds to become the UFC Champ in less than 2 years, also one of the most popular fighters in the sport.

Whats the difference? they bring excitement to a spectator sport.

The GSP comparison one isn't the same either. They might both be respectful martial artists but GSP was simply the right fighter at the right time. When he hit the UFC there was no one else like him, he was like a breath of fresh air in the UFC at that time. You also seem to forget that GSP was heavily critisized later in his career when he became boring to watch. He already had superstar status by that point though. 

I mean, why wasn't Jon Fitch a superstar? he never did anything wrong either, and if GSP wasnt around he probably would have been a long time UFC Champion. Jon Fitch went 14-1 in his first 15 UFC fights and nobody gave a toss outside of a small portion of diehard fans who respected his game.

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by Egg Shen

[kamicazze]

7 minutes ago, Dead Mike said:

Do I have the right to call you a thick bellend? If so, you're a thick bellend.

You can call me what you like if it helps you sleep at night. 

[Egg Shen]

29 minutes ago, David said:

See, this is why I keep pulling you up on this. Do you think racism is just a case of someone posting specifically about him being black? So, because no one actually makes an overt racist comment it means there's no racism in the thread, right?

Wrong. So fucking wrong.

My point is, people are levelling criticism at him that wouldn't be thrown at a white fighter. 

you think so? If any fighter pushed Jorge Masvidal against the cage and employed the same tactics Saturday night they'd be getting the exact same treatment. People were angry because they didn't get what they wanted. 

[sukhy]

Sorry to jump in here, but I wouldn't say there are racist undertones to why people are drawn to Kamaru, it's mainly down to 2 things for me:

1 - his style of fighting is safety first. I know the Colby fight was a barnburner, but that's a complete one off from looking at his record. His fight with Woodley was super one sided and played out against the fence. His fight with Masvidal played out hugged against the fence. His fight with Maia was similar. There's no discounting his skill level, it's just the approach isn't the most interesting for a lot of people. 

2 - he comes across well in interviews and press conferences when he is on his own, but when he has someone next to him giving him stick, he becomes very tense, and doesn't give any good soundbites. And those soundbites, in this day and age, are super necessary (pardon the pun) when it comes to a fighters popularity. If you type Kamaru Usman on YouTube and have a look at the most viewed videos, number 1 is when him and Colby were going back and forth with security around them, and it was like watching 2 dogs barking at each other. 2nd vid on the list is the one that Masvidals team put out about him having multiple personalities, and it really is a hatchet job of a video. Combined they have about 5million views, and I'm not saying that there's not an overlap, but having a fighter who in 2 of the most popular videos about him coming across as a try hard and a bit of a knob surely is not helping his case.

[Scott Malbranque]

 

 

[Egg Shen]

56 minutes ago, David said:

 

The GSP comparison is a terrific one, especially from an "outside the cage" personality standpoint. Which is where the issue here is. His personality outside the cage.

Both fighters are consumate professionals. Well-spoken, intelligent, disarming and incredibly engaging when being interviewed.

The difference? Everyone refers to GSP as a "nice guy" and the kind of guy you'd love for your daughter to bring home. What a representative for the sport, right? Top class through and through.

And that's all correct. GSP is all of those things.

But Usman? Let's look at his history, shall we? Born in Nigeria, spent much of his younger years carrying water for miles to his home so he and his family could have clean drinking water. He then arrived in the US as a young kid and went on to be an NCAA Division II All-American on three separate occasions. 

Just like GSP he's a "nice guy" and a hell of a representative for the sport. 

 

A better comparison to GSP is Jon Jones. Both came into the UFC as young men and tore through their divisions to massive fan fair because they were exciting to watch. Jon Jones was as clean cut as they came in his initial UFC title reign and nobody resented him for it. People loved Jones because he was walked through a division of legends with seeming ease. 

Of course the trappings of fame and success ended up turning Jon Jones into a bit of a mess, but i dont remember any resentment at the time to a young black man becoming UFC Champion, do you?

[David]

1 hour ago, Egg Shen said:

and we clarified it was the wrong word to use later in the thread.

And yet you still went on to point out that a discussion on Twitter had no overt racist replies, thus meaning racism wasn't part of the argument, didn't you? Which suggests you either don't actually know what you're talking about, or that you're being deliberately obtuse.

1 hour ago, kamicazze said:

I would disagree with the unlikable comment. He probably has gone with unlikable as opposed to likeable. People aren't rooting for him to lose, nor are they rooting for him to win. The times they care is when one of their favourites is in the opposing corner, or someone they dislike such as Colby.

Of course you would, because you don't think it's a race thing either, despite the past few months shining a light on the fact that much of what happens in popular culture is, in fact, based on race. 

I've mentioned how, as a person, Usman is looked at completely different from someone like GSP, despite them both being stellar character outside the cage. Why is that? 

1 hour ago, kamicazze said:

if you're not offended, you're trolling. You've reverted to calling me a twat to attempt to get a reaction.

I'm calling you a twat because when someone starts chatting about how the "cancel culture woke brigade" are "guilting" people into doing anything it's generally the sign of a twat. 

1 hour ago, kamicazze said:

If you're an Usman fan fair enough, maybe be open minded and diverse enough in modern day culture to think others have a different opinion to you and that's okay.

I've said numerous times, if someone doesn't like how Usman fights, then fair play. His approach certainly isn't for everyone. However, when this viewpoint shifts to him being considered unlikeable or held to different standards from white fighters I'm probably going to pick up on that and question those opinions.

Nice attempt at using some key phrases there though. Bonus points for giving it a try.

1 hour ago, Egg Shen said:

But then there's Francis Ngannou, born in Cameroon. Overcame poverty and hardship to make it to the UFC and become the most popular fighter in the heavyweight division.

The same Francis Ngannou who faced a load of abuse and people telling him they were unfollowing him when he posted on Twitter supporting the BLM cause? 

As has been said elsewhere, African fighters and sportmen are tolerated, and even liked, as long as they play the game. Everyone loves a big, heavy-hitting black dude who just knocks people out, smiles for the camera and plays nice, right?

But as soon as he starts to speak up and shifts outside of his lane the tide slowly turns. 

The same applies to Izzy, by the way. He made the mistake of making a stand politically. Lots of abuse followed. You'll see that play a part in his fights from here on in, with certain types just waiting to pounce on anything he does wrong or if he has a bad performance. 

It's a case of "know your place" really.

1 hour ago, Egg Shen said:

The GSP comparison one isn't the same either. They might both be respectful martial artists but GSP was simply the right fighter at the right time. When he hit the UFC there was no one else like him, he was like a breath of fresh air in the UFC at that time. You also seem to forget that GSP was heavily critisized later in his career when he became boring to watch. He already had superstar status by that point though. 

I mean, why wasn't Jon Fitch a superstar? he never did anything wrong either, and if GSP wasnt around he probably would have been a long time UFC Champion. Jon Fitch went 14-1 in his first 15 UFC fights and nobody gave a toss outside of a small portion of diehard fans who respected his game.

I've said numerous times that I'm looking at it from an out of cage viewpoint. GSP and Usman are very similar outside the cage. Why are you bringing it back to judging them as fighters?

And it's not about anyone being a superstar. I'm not debating the marketability of these guys. See, this is why I think you don't actually know what we're talking about. This isn't a "how many buy rates can this guy bring in?" discussion.

Jon Fitch has shown that he's a complete arsehole outside the cage, so why you're even mentioning him is beyond me.

1 hour ago, Egg Shen said:

If any fighter pushed Jorge Masvidal against the cage and employed the same tactics Saturday night they'd be getting the exact same treatment. People were angry because they didn't get what they wanted.

Once again, I'm not talking about people being critical of his in-cage performance, Ebb. Not sure how many times i can say that before you'll finally understand. 

What I'm saying is that when those people get "angry" because they "didn't get what they wanted" we see that anger expressed in different ways for a black fighter than we do a white fighter. The personal criticism, the talk of "unlikeability" and so on.

1 hour ago, sukhy said:

Sorry to jump in here, but I wouldn't say there are racist undertones to why people are drawn to Kamaru,

Don't apologise. But, you're making the same mistake Ebb is making. You're looking at this from a marketability/popularity as a fighter viewpoint. This has next to nothing to do with how Usman does in his fights. I'm not saying he's great at trash-talk or anything like that.

I'm saying that he's a very intelligent, articulate, and engaging person outside the cage. He's a family man. He's not being accused of rape or hitting women. Yet, he's deemed unlikeable.

Here's a perfect example of the kind of thing I'm talking about.

Compare the difference in attitude towards Conor McGregor flashing his cash, strutting around in expensive suits and posting photos of himself with stacks of money and flash cars and Floyd Mayweather doing the same. 

54 minutes ago, Egg Shen said:

A better comparison to GSP is Jon Jones. Both came into the UFC as young men and tore through their divisions to massive fan fair because they were exciting to watch. Jon Jones was as clean cut as they came in his initial UFC title reign and nobody resented him for it. People loved Jones because he was walked through a division of legends with seeming ease. 

Of course the trappings of fame and success ended up turning Jon Jones into a bit of a mess, but i dont remember any resentment at the time to a young black man becoming UFC Champion, do you?

Once again, you're looking at how he's judged as a fighter. You clearly don't grasp what this conversation is about.

[Egg Shen]

that's enough David for one day