Wrestling #MeToo #SpeakingOut

[DEF]

1 hour ago, Sexy Dad said:

There were some valid points but I’ll assume you’ll also be throwing out any technology, household items and clothing sourced by overseas exploitation to teach a proper lesson about ethics and doing the right thing as well. Have a day off. 
 

Nah it's sort of WWE's fault. The relentless barrage of shitty things they have done has broken me so I have far less tolerance for wrestling scum. I know full well a lot of stuff I consume and enjoy is crap but I just draw the line after a certain point. Being a Dad to a young Women puts shitty behaviour towards women front and centre in my mind.

Plus it's my perogative to spend my money how I wish and supporting something that genuinely bothers me and legit hurts many women is not how I want to spend it. AEW can get my money back any time they actually prove they give a shit about that sort of behaviour.

It's the same as I don't buy Roman Polanksi films anymore. The idea of giving him money boils my piss. Yes he's a great filmmaker but that means very little to me as he's also a child rapist.

[DavidB6937]

1 hour ago, theringmaster said:

I'm going to weigh in with a view some won't like but I'm not intending to offend, just make people think.

When The 'Britwrest Boom' was at it's height, 'certain' wrestlers took full advantage of fans goodwill; Selling a new t-shirt every week, setting up go fund me for when they needed cash quick, putting Whetherspoons number on twitter and asking for drinks, going with fans to clubs just to be bought drinks all night ("Hey, they got a selfie, they should be grateful") and it goes on and on. 

I can remember at the time thinking that a lot of people are being taken for mugs, believing these people are 'really nice' because they have a chat at the merch table or they call themselves 'Wholesome' on twitter or  t h e y  t y p e  l i k e  t h i s.

It is not for a single second the fans fault, its the wrestlers (men and women) who homed in on their good will and exploited it.

After Speaking Out, it was clear that these people were not 'wholesome' and now we have a situation like many above said that fans cant trust any wrestler or wrestling promotion. What's worse is I see a lot of fans falling into the same traps on social media now, "Support my patreon" has become the new Go Fund Me it feels (that's right-pay money for what is essentially a glorified Insta account! I 100% guarantee you that they are not laughing at you as you pay into their bank account each month...)

My point is you should be able to enjoy wrestling, just don't put your whole faith in these people and believe they could be your mate. There are countless movie stars, footballers, singers etc I admire that I know I would never want to meet or have a drink with (Adele is prime example, I actually think she would be really annoying in person but i love her music).

The entertainment industry will always have 'bad eggs' and 'jobs for mates' mentality, unfortuanly that's life and I'm not trying to make excuses for AEW bad decisions but if you're going to go down that road, where does it stop? Never watch EastEnders again because some people in BBC knew about Saville? Never watch a film starring Meryl Streep because she is friends with Roman Polanksi and probably knew about Harvey Weinstein? Never watch a Disney film because old Walt had a questionable attitude towards Jews?

A lot of this isn't really an issue to me. People selling their 'brand' isn't anything new and I wouldn't really call it 'taking advantage'. Why wouldn't they sell merchandise or set up patreons for fans that are interested in that sort of thing?

I get what you're saying about them not being your mate or whatever. Sure there's always a line but I don't think 'selling stuff' simply = taking advantage. If they were in WWE they'd just have the corporation selling their merch but if they're on the indies they can have more control over that sort of thing and if they're smart about it then why not? There's obviously a demand for it and I don't think we can say any wrestler doing something like that is questionable. They can be nice AND sell stuff right?

It can be as much to do with the fan as anything. And this isn't a wrestling exclusive thing - plenty of fans cross that line with other forms of entertainment and get caught up in it all too much. Do wrestlers stop trying to make money knowing there's a few questionable individuals out there that might take it the wrong way? I'm not sure about that really.

Again it's very much a personal 'where's your line?' type deal. Is it a bit shitty getting fans to buy you drinks when you probably earn more money than them? Yeah but I'm sure that's been going on in one form or another for years now, especially with musicians and people like that. Just so happens there's an app for it now.

[Nick James]

1 hour ago, theringmaster said:

The entertainment industry will always have 'bad eggs' and 'jobs for mates' mentality, unfortuanly that's life and I'm not trying to make excuses for AEW bad decisions but if you're going to go down that road, where does it stop? Never watch EastEnders again because some people in BBC knew about Saville? Never watch a film starring Meryl Streep because she is friends with Roman Polanksi and probably knew about Harvey Weinstein? Never watch a Disney film because old Walt had a questionable attitude towards Jews?

If we are going with that logic, when was the last time you heard a Lost Prophets song on the radio? Gary Glitter? etc. Everyone has a personal limit, some can look past things in the name of entertainment, other struggle to separate the art from the artist. Look at the whole Johnny Depp / Pirates of the Caribbean saga, people can speak up when they feel a company are making decisions that are not ethical. If only people spoke up more, then maybe the world would actually be a better place, but again, its all down to personal ethical choices and where you draw the line. 

[tiger_rick]

1 hour ago, Keith Houchen said:

It’s about personal responsibility. What would it take for you to stop giving an organisation your money? For some, there isn’t anything, for others, it’s different things. I can totally understand still watching something you really enjoy, it’s the giving them money I can’t. 

 

5 minutes ago, Nick James said:

If we are going with that logic, when was the last time you heard a Lost Prophets song on the radio? Gary Glitter? etc. Everyone has a personal limit, some can look past things in the name of entertainment, other struggle to separate the art from the artist. Look at the whole Johnny Depp / Pirates of the Caribbean saga, people can speak up when they feel a company are making decisions that are not ethical. If only people spoke up more, then maybe the world would actually be a better place, but again, its all down to personal ethical choices and where you draw the line. 

There's an element of that and making a personal choice does make you feel better. I feel better about not giving Vince my tenner a month. I'm sure he misses it, like. But this is a much wider issue that no element of personal choice is going to resolve. These brave people have spoken out. We've all been aghast. Yet, fuck all has happened. No-one has been charged with anything. There's been no change in legislation. The All Party debate went nowhere. Most people are back working. It's shit.

It's the same everywhere. I feel better knowing I'm not a Tory, that I didn't vote Leave, that I followed every rule that was set out over the last 18 months but none of that is stopping the country going to shit. You do wonder what the point of it all is.

[DavidB6937]

1 minute ago, tiger_rick said:

You do wonder what the point of it all is.

And there's a huge collective feeling of this constantly with things like politics and big issues and it's why so many people don't bother to vote (for example) or feel like their small contribution/effort won't change anything because it never does. So they just don't. And I think that's a really tough mentality to change in people. You see it with gun control in America or racism and issues with the police and numerous other things. Time and time again shit still happens and the big changes don't happen and there's mass disillusion.

It's exhausting following it but I think the driving force for change and keeping that determination is knowing how much worse it is for people who have been involved and directly impacted by things. And those who could be in the future. Sure, it often feels like people are fighting a losing battle but at least there's a chance of change if people are still fighting. If everyone just gives up then there's none whatsoever.

[BomberPat]

14 minutes ago, Nick James said:

other struggle to separate the art from the artist. 

This is another point where everyone's mileage is definitely going to vary, and one where I particularly think wrestling (and especially modern day wrestling) puts the line in a very different place to other media. If you're watching a Disney movie, you're not (generally) seeing Walt Disney or his opinions plastered across the screen. But if you watch a wrestling match featuring an abuser, you're watching the actual person, and quite often portraying a "version of themselves". I can't imagine how it must feel to be a victim of an abuser and run the risk of unexpectedly sharing a locker room with them, or even of them showing up on a TV show you're watching. Wrestling, especially on an independent level, is far more focused on the individual than a lot of the other things we're talking about.

I think "not as bad as WWE" is a valid point to be made about AEW, but it's not an excuse to handwave away anything bad they do. I don't know the specifics of any investigation or due diligence they've done around Darby Allin, and I don't know how people closer to the situation feel about all that, so try not to think about it, while recognising that it's a position of privilege that allows me to make that judgement call. I'm not happy about them bringing in Jay Lethal, and hope they realise the error of their ways pretty quickly in that regard. But they've cut ties with Jimmy Havoc, they've (seemingly) abandoned plans to bring in Ric Flair, and by all accounts have a positive backstage atmosphere, working environment etc.; I don't think you can compare the company responsible for killing Owen Hart with the company that managed the illness and death of Brodie Lee with more tact than I think any other promotion ever could have done, and that has managed to bring Martha Hart on board. I think the two promotions are light years apart in terms of moral compass, and that it's disingenuous to say that it's only a matter of time before AEW become "as bad as" WWE. 

3 minutes ago, tiger_rick said:

These brave people have spoken out. We've all been aghast. Yet, fuck all has happened. No-one has been charged with anything. There's been no change in legislation. The All Party debate went nowhere. Most people are back working. It's shit.

I understand these frustrations, but I don't think they're quite true. It's awful that the likes of Banks, Ligero, Scurll et al are still working, but they're all people who pre-Speaking Out either had major contracts or could easily be expected to have earned them. Marty Scurll likely would have ended up in AEW, or a high profile role in NJPW, and he's reduced to working companies you've never heard of in Germany and Puerto Rico. Travis Banks is still a manipulative prick, but he's been run out of the country and is having to work for Mexican indies. El Ligero is having to work companies with no online presence whatsoever. 

Now, obviously, we'd prefer that those people be fucked off out of the industry altogether. But the major difference now is that when someone like Ligero does show up on an All-Star show, the people who feel empowered to call it out (and, hopefully, get him kicked off those shows too) are, by and large, young female wrestlers early in their career. Those are exactly the sort of people who, before all this, were being victimised because they didn't have a voice, and were pressured into not saying anything because it would affect their careers or their reputation, who now know that there's enough people who'll stand by them and support them. That's a massive cultural shift, and the most important aspect of all of this for me. The important thing now is for well-meaning people in wrestling to not throw their hands up and say "fuck it, nothing's changed and nothing well", it's to keep supporting those people, and keep putting pressure on promotions to stand by things like codes of conduct, safeguarding, and whatnot. 

It won't impact on a company the size of WWE, and likely not all that much on AEW - though they clearly listen to audience concerns more - but those companies, in my eyes, aren't where this shit matters as much, the bulk of the issues in Speaking Out come from small independent companies, and it is possible to work with them and make them better. We are in a better place regarding all of this than we were a year ago, we're just not in as good a place as we should be. But it was never going to be a quick, easy fix.

[Guest]

To whether there's any point - deciding not to be part of the problem isn't always a means to an end. The bad stuff doesn't have to stop for it to have been worth opposing it and refusing to be complicit.

Just striving to do the right thing and live by example (especially when it's so fucking easy) ought to be... not even its own reward, but the default setting; the standard below which we try not to dip, because we give the most minimal of shits.

[kieranjennings]

2 hours ago, BomberPat said:

I think "not as bad as WWE" is a valid point to be made about AEW, but it's not an excuse to handwave away anything bad they do. I don't know the specifics of any investigation or due diligence they've done around Darby Allin, and I don't know how people closer to the situation feel about all that, so try not to think about it, while recognising that it's a position of privilege that allows me to make that judgement call. I'm not happy about them bringing in Jay Lethal, and hope they realise the error of their ways pretty quickly in that regard. But they've cut ties with Jimmy Havoc, they've (seemingly) abandoned plans to bring in Ric Flair, and by all accounts have a positive backstage atmosphere, working environment etc.; I don't think you can compare the company responsible for killing Owen Hart with the company that managed the illness and death of Brodie Lee with more tact than I think any other promotion ever could have done, and that has managed to bring Martha Hart on board. I think the two promotions are light years apart in terms of moral compass, and that it's disingenuous to say that it's only a matter of time before AEW become "as bad as" WWE. 

 

I would say in WWE's defence, look at how they handled Roman Reign's illness, look at how they put Bryan Danielson's & Samoa Joe's health before his willingness to wrestle (which got them a lot of pelters at the time too). 

Are AEW looking after Bryan Danielson more now by letting him loose wrestling the style he wants than a more protected way with all of his previous injury concerns? 

Both have done good things, both have done some very questionable things. One has been in business longer so has a longer rap sheet for sure but the bigger question mark is over the whole industry rather than just the two specific companies. Most of it's born out of toxic masculinity that drove a lot of these behaviours and hopefully going forward it gets better on both sides. 

[King Coconut]

10 minutes ago, kieranjennings said:

I would say in WWE's defence, look at how they handled Roman Reign's illness, look at how they put Bryan Danielson's & Samoa Joe's health before his willingness to wrestle (which got them a lot of pelters at the time too). 

This is your defence against the rape, racism, sexism, homophobia, etc? You might as well rest your case.

[Chris B]

14 minutes ago, kieranjennings said:

I would say in WWE's defence, look at how they handled Roman Reign's illness

They scripted Dean Ambrose to call it 'karma', and Mox has said that the original scripting was much worse before he complained.

[Keith Houchen]

2 minutes ago, Chris B said:

They scripted Dean Ambrose to call it 'karma', and Mox has said that the original scripting was much worse before he complained.

Was Roman ok with it? Or did they even run it by him?

[kieranjennings]

11 minutes ago, King Coconut said:

This is your defence against the rape, racism, sexism, homophobia, etc? You might as well rest your case.

Well I was obviously responding about dealing with health & illness there. At no point did I excuse any of the other acts I believe. 

Of course there is no defence against those actions but my point is that the industry as a whole has been rife with it and picking out one company against the other is a redundant argument (especially factoring in length they've been in business). The only hope is that both clean up their acts going forward. 

[Hannibal Scorch]

35 minutes ago, kieranjennings said:

I would say in WWE's defence, look at how they handled Roman Reign's illness, look at how they put Bryan Danielson's & Samoa Joe's health before his willingness to wrestle (which got them a lot of pelters at the time too). 

 

Yes, congratulations Vince on letting Roman have time off to get treatment. As if they even had a choice in the matter. Are you comparing that to AEW and Brody?

[Keith Houchen]

Just now, Hannibal Scorch said:

Yes, congratulations Vince on letting Roman have time off to get treatment. As if they even had a choice in the matter. Are you comparing that to AEW and Brody?

He’s making the point that regardless how scummy a company is, you’ll find elements where they weren’t scummy. At least that’s what I got. 

[Hannibal Scorch]

2 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

He’s making the point that regardless how scummy a company is, you’ll find elements where they weren’t scummy. At least that’s what I got. 

He had cancer, they had no choice but to let him get treatment. They then used it as angle to give Dean Ambrose the worst cheap heat.