Wrestling #MeToo #SpeakingOut

[BomberPat]

ultimately, everyone has a tipping point - for some it's Jay Lethal, for others it isn't.

For some - myself included - I'd hold major promotions like WWE and AEW to different standards than smaller indies; mostly because I never had any expectations that Speaking Out would impact on WWE in any meaningful sense, whereas individual fans or small groups can influence and put pressure on smaller promotions much more easily. It sucks that there are wrestlers with credible allegations still working for WWE, AEW, NJPW, or anywhere else, but my main concerns when Speaking Out kicked off were that trainees and wrestlers I know, and others in their position, should be able to be safe in locker rooms, in cars on the way to shows, and so on. Promotions the size of WWE were never really on my radar, rightly or wrongly. 

Edited November 15, 2021 by BomberPat

[Loki]

What are our standards of proof for sexual allegations though?  Genuine question as in lieu of actual court cases everyone accused is being judged by us, wrestling fans - who aren't the best judges of character I think it's fair to say.

Obviously, these wrestling cases are just a subset of the more general #metoo movement but I struggle with the idea that a wrestler, once an allegation has been made or even inferred in a cryptic tweet, is therefore blacklisted from the sport for ever.  Particularly given the number of older beloved wrestlers still active who came from a time before #metoo when the wrestling industry had ZERO standards and therefore get a pass (cough Lawler, Raven, HBK, etc).

Slightly rambly sorry - but I've been considering it since the whole Velveteen Dream scandal where I genuinely felt the accusations and evidence being presented against him lacked credibility and actually smacked of homophobia, but now his career is over.  Do we or should we have an actual standard of proof or do we go on Twitter retweet volume?  How do we strike a balance between the desire to believe survivors of sexual abuse, and the rights of people wrongly accused of crimes in the scenario where none of this is ever going to end up in a court room?

 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2021 by Loki

[Tsurutagun]

11 hours ago, Hannibal Scorch said:

So one of Lethal’s accusers, Kelly Klein, is married to BJ Whitmer who is now an agent at AEW.

Didnt she have an affair with Joey Mercury which lead to a divorce? 

[Carbomb]

2 minutes ago, Tsurutagun said:

Didnt she have an affair with Joey Mercury which lead to a divorce? 

Going to assume good faith here, that you've only raised it as a point of trivia and not as a counter-argument to any accusations she's made?

[Hannibal Scorch]

12 minutes ago, Tsurutagun said:

Didnt she have an affair with Joey Mercury which lead to a divorce? 

Possibly. This is her 2nd marriage though so they are still a couple.

[Tsurutagun]

2 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Going to assume good faith here, that you've only raised it as a point of trivia and not as a counter-argument to any accusations she's made?

Trivia is always important. 

Seriously though, I believe the woman that have accused Lethal. I also don't think highly of Kelly Klein. That's just my moral compass regarding cheating whilst in a marriage which is affected by past events in my life. 

My two points are and sorry if this was raised earlier but a) Even without any allegations it's fucking Jay Lethal and b) I wonder if a Bandido signing gets the shitstorm that it'll deserve should it happen

[Carbomb]

4 minutes ago, Tsurutagun said:

Trivia is always important. 

As a pub-quiz hooligan, I agree

4 minutes ago, Tsurutagun said:

Seriously though, I believe the woman that have accused Lethal. I also don't think highly of Kelly Klein. That's just my moral compass regarding cheating whilst in a marriage which is affected by past events in my life. 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with not thinking highly of her, as that is indeed shitty behaviour. I just wanted to clarify that you weren't raising this as an argument that she shouldn't be believed or listened to when accusing someone of sexually assaulting her.

4 minutes ago, Tsurutagun said:

My two points are and sorry if this was raised earlier but a) Even without any allegations it's fucking Jay Lethal and b) I wonder if a Bandido signing gets the shitstorm that it'll deserve should it happen

a) Well, yeah. Double the reasons why he shouldn't have been signed.

b) I'm in full agreement with you that any signing of someone accused of sexual assault should be criticised.

[Guest]

It's reasonable to criticise any profit-driven enterprise (including wrestling promotions and sports teams) for actions that simply go against your personal preferences (such as not booking your favourite to win the belt, or changing the colour of their away kit) without necessarily altering your engagement with that business.

But when the matter you're criticising is one of basic ethics on a human level, beyond the scope of whatever product of theirs you might indulge in, then there's really no excuse for continuing to support them or contribute to their profits (directly or, for instance through advertisers, indirectly). When you make the choice to do so, you undermine any moral criticism you might aim at them. Sorry, but you do.

This is going over old ground of course. Anyone who'd agree will have probably demonstrated as much by now, but as mentioned a few posts up, everyone has their own tipping point so there's always hope.

[Infinity Land]

37 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

There's absolutely nothing wrong with not thinking highly of her, as that is indeed shitty behaviour. I just wanted to clarify that you weren't raising this as an argument that she shouldn't be believed or listened to when accusing someone of sexually assaulting her.

With regards to Kelly Klein the allegations against Jay Lethal are more sexual harassment than sexual assault.

Quote

On or about January 13, 2017, while Klein was in a hot tub near the pool of a hotel where the wrestlers were staying the night before an event, Shipman approached Klein and, while leering at her in a way that made Klein uncomfortable, started harassing her by asking her questions about whether her boyfriend was there, if she was staying in the hotel alone and how long she would be at the hotel. Shipman’s behavior made Klein very uncomfortable.

On or about January 25, 2017, Klein received an email from ROH management advising her and the other wrestlers that Shipman would be the new agent assigned to work with the female wrestlers. One day later, Klein responded to the e-mail and explained that she had witnessed and experienced several situations with Shipman that made her uncomfortable to work with him. She advised ROH management that she was not willing to work with Shipman and requested that another agent be assigned to her matches. Klein went on to explain that she had not expressed this sooner for fear of backlash or retaliation

 

[Carbomb]

Didn't know his surname was Shipman. Should've inherited Steve Williams' "Dr. Death" moniker.

Fair enough, but the point still stands, I think.

[Vamp]

I'm not really sure why people expect better of AEW. With all due respect to what they've achieved, it was started up by a group of friends spending the money of a billionaire's son, getting themselves executive positions and hiring friends. I'm sure Lethal probably got hired because a mate of his put a word in. Jericho didn't give two shits about protecting his fans during the worst of Covid. Tony Khan looking at some emails and deciding hot property Darby Allin is Allintheclear is a bit suspect. Aren't they all republicans too? 

I dunno. I know they've done good stuff (the work they did towards Autism inclusion in particular) but so do the 'E. I just think people are either setting themselves up for disappointment or are going to put their blinkers on and not give them shit when they deserve it. 

Actually, as a wrestling fandom, I think we need to do more to highlight the good 'uns and what we deem to be more ethical promotions. That's the way to put their name out there and encourage others to support them and potentially make more of a difference. But really I imagine more than half of us are fans because of the sleaze and the bollocks (including, probably, Tony Khan himself). 

[Chris B]

4 hours ago, BomberPat said:

ultimately, everyone has a tipping point - for some it's Jay Lethal, for others it isn't.

Yeah, this is where I'm at with it. It took me a long time to get to the point where I stopped watching WWE. I was more quick to drop NJPW, although that was fairly specifically not just continuing to use Ospreay, but also putting him on top and leaning into the controversy.  And dropping NJPW wasn't something I saw coming.

Bringing Lethal in (and not addressing it) is a red flag, especially with the situation with Don Callis as well (I've talked before that the Darby Allin thing, for me, depends on the specific nature of the allegations, as I found them somewhat ambiguous). It won't take many more red flags for me to lose interest in AEW altogether, and I doubt it will for quite a few others. Something like Full Gear, as big as it is, is a pretty natural jumping-off point.

[Joe Blog]

Good post @Chris B, I am of a similar mindset. I sacked off WWE a good while back and only ever use this place to see what is happening.

For me AEW was a great alternative and I genuinely enjoy the product a lot. The signing of Lethal has really soured them for me and I am hopeful that they will acknowledge the back lash and send him packing but I am not hopeful. 

[Keith Houchen]

28 minutes ago, Vamp said:

I'm not really sure why people expect better of AEW. With all due respect to what they've achieved, it was started up by a group of friends spending the money of a billionaire's son, getting themselves executive positions and hiring friends. I'm sure Lethal probably got hired because a mate of his put a word in. Jericho didn't give two shits about protecting his fans during the worst of Covid. Tony Khan looking at some emails and deciding hot property Darby Allin is Allintheclear is a bit suspect. Aren't they all republicans too? 

I dunno. I know they've done good stuff (the work they did towards Autism inclusion in particular) but so do the 'E. I just think people are either setting themselves up for disappointment or are going to put their blinkers on and not give them shit when they deserve it. 

Actually, as a wrestling fandom, I think we need to do more to highlight the good 'uns and what we deem to be more ethical promotions. That's the way to put their name out there and encourage others to support them and potentially make more of a difference. But really I imagine more than half of us are fans because of the sleaze and the bollocks (including, probably, Tony Khan himself). 

This makes excellent points. I think AEW get goodwill from fans not because it’s AEW, but because it’s NOTWWE. They’ve hatewatched WWE for years but now they have an alternative high budget product with big production. When they started they talked about health insurance and whatnot but it soon seemed like that was for the big boys. When it all started part of me thought they were rinsing a spoilt son of a billionaire as the ultimate money mark. A wrestling geek with deep deep pockets. The more time passes, it seems they have the same morals, or lack of, as Titan Towers. 

[kieranjennings]

AEW did get a lot of goodwill for all that early talk about insurance, inclusivity etc. and being a different sleaze-less place for talent. However none of that really appears to have been the case not held to task because people enjoy the content they are putting out. Tony Khan seems to enjoy being one of the boys, and an alternative product and place to work is great, but they are not perhaps the great philanthropists everyone hoped they'd be.