Comedy and offense

[Thunderplex]

5 hours ago, Just Some Guy said:

There's a difference between nudity in comedy (see the late, great Malcolm Hardee) and waving your dick at a singled out member of the audience.

Viva La France!

[wordsfromlee]

The Pleasance have issued a full statement regarding the cancellation of the show.

Quote

"As previously stated, the Pleasance chose to pull Jerry Sadowitz's second and final show. Due to numerous complaints, we became immediately aware of content that was considered, among other things, extreme in its racism, sexism, homophobia and misogyny. We will not associate with content which attacks people's dignity and the language used on stage was, in our view, completely unacceptable.

"A large number of people walked out of Jerry Sadowitz's show as they felt uncomfortable and unsafe to remain in the venue. We have received an unprecedented number of complaints that could not be ignored and we had a duty to respond. The subsequent abuse directed to our teams is also equally unacceptable.

"At the Pleasance, our values are to be inclusive, diverse and welcoming. We are proud of the progress we have made across our programming, which includes significant investment and support for black, Asian and global majority artists, LGBTQ+ voices, those from working class backgrounds, and the strong representation of women. We do not believe that racism, homophobia, sexism or misogynistic language have a place in our venues.

"In a changing world, stories and language that were once accepted on stage, whether performed in character or not, need to be challenged. There is a line that we will not cross at the Pleasance, and it was our view that this line was crossed on this occasion.

"We don't vet the full content of acts in advance and while Jerry Sadowitz is a controversial comedian, we could not have known the specifics of his performance. The Pleasance has staged his work numerous times over the years, but as soon as we received complaints from those in the building which caused us great concern, we knew we could not allow the final performance to go ahead.

"The arts and comedy in particular have always pushed the boundaries of social norms but this boundary is always moving. Our industry has to move with it. However, this does not mean that we can allow such content to be on our stages."

 

[Loki]

It’s possible Sadowitz finally crossed the invisible line that he’s been toeing so successfully his entire career.  

It’s possible that changing social mores have moved that line in the last few years and he hasn’t realised that.

 None of us know as we weren’t in the audience.

 It’s the right of a private venue to book or cancel whatever they like so no complaints there, this isn’t cancel culture it’s a venue making a call.

 But I have to feel some sympathy for Sadowitz, it’s not unreasonable for him to think that decades of acclaimed work might buy him some leeway and provide him with audiences who will give him the benefit of the doubt.

[King Coconut]

10 minutes ago, Loki said:

But I have to feel some sympathy for Sadowitz, it’s not unreasonable for him to think that decades of acclaimed work might buy him some leeway and provide him with audiences who will give him the benefit of the doubt.

Surely that depends entirely on what he said. I wasn't there and don't have enough information to judge him but surely it's possible that he overstepped the mark.

[Loki]

3 minutes ago, King Coconut said:

Surely that depends entirely on what he said. I wasn't there and don't have enough information to judge him but surely it's possible that he overstepped the mark.

Yes, which is why I said

 “It’s possible Sadowitz finally crossed the invisible line that he’s been toeing so successfully his entire career”

It’s definitely possible he overstepped the mark.  But he’s been doing this a long time, and has an act which is him playing a controversial character.   So it’s also possible he didn’t.

 

 I’m willing, based on his long career NOT overstepping the mark to give him the benefit of the doubt until footage emerges.  Thatt just my personal decision though.

 

[Tim Healys Chutney Spoon]

People will know what brand of 'comedy' he brings so to then be outraged by it after buying a ticket for it seems rather contradictory to me. 

[Mr_Danger]

As a former nominee for funniest poster on an internet wrestling forum I’ll give my perspective. It’s a point I’ve laboured a couple of times in here already but let him say what he wants and let the audience be his judge. If they find that it’s no longer acceptable to say “pa*i bastard” under any circumstances then so be it. You can’t use the defence that “he’s always been like this” and ignore the massive shift in audience taste and tolerance. There should always be people to push back though, we don’t want a world full of Michael McIntyre comedians anymore than we do a world full of Jim Davidson ones.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Mr_Danger

[BomberPat]

I'm sure I've already referenced the Steve Albini interview about "edgelord culture" in here before, but it feels like Sadowitz's career was born of the same logic - this sense from within insular scenes that didn't realise how insular they were that arguments over racism, sexism, homophobia and so on had more or less been won, that the world was more open and liberal now, and that all of these things were now fair game to make jokes about. That obviously wasn't the case, and Sadowitz has kept ploughing that furrow, and mostly got away with it based on reputation, or on the "character" logic that Stewart Lee described as Sadowitz being "at the bottom of the pile", so that whatever he joked about, it was always "punching up" because he's so pathetic. But that starts to feel like a bit of a flimsy excuse, and if there are people in the audience or working at the venue who find themselves the target of his jokes - either directly, or because he attacks a group they belong to - I'm not sure they'd feel all that reassured to be told "oh, it's just a character, and it's okay, he's been telling jokes about gays and Asians for years now". It all feels like "calm down mate, it's just a joke" writ large.

At the end of the day, the venue received a ton of complaints and they acted on them. My instinct would be to think that he's done what all "offensive" or reactionary public figures eventually end up doing and pushed it too far, but even if he's doing the same material he's always done, if the venue has been inundated with complaints, they're well within their rights to act upon them. 

[Keith Houchen]

26 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

if the venue has been inundated with complaints, they're well within their rights to act upon them. 

Even if they received no complaints, they’re well within their rights to cancel the show. Bad news for all those who hadn’t heard of Sadowitz before this week who suddenly liked him because he offended imaginary people in their heads, much like I’m doing now. Jerry has said how he is offended in his statement he released, so he must be a snowflake now. 

 

[SuperBacon]

"I am not J** D*******"

Joy Division or Jim Davidson?

[Factotum]

The venue absolutely knew what Jerry Sadowitz is about. I don't care what they say. 

It's obviously up to them who they put on. He'll be fine and there will be a lot of venues who'll want to book him and people can decide whether to watch it or not. Its not as complex as some people make out really.

One thing I will say is without context of the gig both sides seem to be labeling this as something that they actually don't know about.

 

[Keith Houchen]

8 minutes ago, Factotum said:

One thing I will say is without context of the gig both sides seem to be labeling this as something that they actually don't know about.

Pretty sure the venue know about it very well. 

[Factotum]

21 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

Pretty sure the venue know about it very well. 

Venue is the venue. That statement said a lot without really saying much. We know that he said some pretty horrible things and got his cock out. The actual point of those acts within his show hasn't been explored. I'm not saying he was right, I just don't know what the show is. I've seen Sadowitz once before and it was pretty dark stuff, but I never once thought he genuinely believed what he was saying.

[Keith Houchen]

3 minutes ago, Factotum said:

The actual point of those acts within his show hasn't been explored

Don’t a lot of artists use the fringe as a testing ground for new shows? Like a trial run for the nationwide tour where they iron out the bits that don’t work and make corrections? Almost like they use this as an editor / proof reading exercise? 

[wordsfromlee]

27 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

Don’t a lot of artists use the fringe as a testing ground for new shows? Like a trial run for the nationwide tour where they iron out the bits that don’t work and make corrections? Almost like they use this as an editor / proof reading exercise? 

It used to be but not so much these days. You do get the odd WIP show but the majority of acts have it pretty much ironed out by the time they hit Edinburgh. 
 

They don’t want to have a half finished when the booker for some ITV2 panel show comes to watch it!