Paid Members IANdrewDiceClay Posted April 9, 2013 Author Paid Members Share Posted April 9, 2013 He is neither of those things. He's the biggest babyface of the last decade. There's no argument or spin to the contrary. He's a Make-a-Wish ambassador, never cheats, always over comes the odds and laughs off boos because he's apparently such a smashing bloke that he respects their right to boo him. He never compromises his values no matter how much they try and make him did so. Saying his not a heel or a babyface is just wrong. Â And if he turned heel tomorrow he'd eliminate all those babyface qualities and he'd be a heel. There isn't such a thing as a tweener anyway. You are either good or you are bad. Wrestling really isn't that complex. You are either a dick or you aren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members SpursRiot2012 Posted April 9, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted April 9, 2013 Fuck is up with these people on YouTube? Some guy posted a video saying it was last nights Raw in full. Starts off with the Then, Now, Forever thing and a live shot of Raw's firework opening and then cuts to video game footage for a full two hours?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d-d-d-dAz Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 I don't necessarily agree. Â I mean, yeah, if you weighed up the sum of all his parts you'd be looking at ratio massively in favour of 'face' characteristics but there have been too many hostile crowds, and too many opportunities to fuck with those crowds (that they've taken), to say that it's that simple anymore. Â He's a brand, now, with a certain set of characteristics and traits that you're either on board with or you're not. Â His actions no longer have to be either 'heel' or 'face', the more important, bigger picture is that they fit with the 'Cenation' guiding principles. Â Trying to judge him against dry readings of 'face' and 'heel' is hard, as there's never really been a performer who gains the reactions that Cena has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTXRussomark Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 Fuck is up with these people on YouTube? Some guy posted a video saying it was last nights Raw in full. Starts off with the Then, Now, Forever thing and a live shot of Raw's firework opening and then cuts to video game footage for a full two hours?! It's a right fucking pain in the arse, isn't it? I don't even know what the video are meant to accomplish. They're even worse than the videos with a still photo and some twat giving a review over the top of it. Part of me reckons it's WWE uploading them themselves so people get so frustrated they stop trying to watch things through Youtube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members IANdrewDiceClay Posted April 9, 2013 Author Paid Members Share Posted April 9, 2013 I don't necessarily agree. I mean, yeah, if you weighed up the sum of all his parts you'd be looking at ratio massively in favour of 'face' characteristics but there have been too many hostile crowds, and too many opportunities to fuck with those crowds (that they've taken), to say that it's that simple anymore.  He's a brand, now, with a certain set of characteristics and traits that you're either on board with or you're not.  His actions no longer have to be either 'heel' or 'face', the more important, bigger picture is that they fit with the 'Cenation' guiding principles.  Trying to judge him against dry readings of 'face' and 'heel' is hard, as there's never really been a performer who gains the reactions that Cena has. He doesn't fuck with crowds, though. He isn't looking for a hostile reaction. He reacts in a humorous manner to their chants, and they usually laugh back if its funny. Like last night. He was really funny. But there is nothing heelish about his act at all. The heel gets the heat on him and he over comes the odds usually. He's the modern babyface. He comes off like a massive dork occasionally, but his hearts in the right place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visitor from another forum Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 Well I agree with that to a point, but it`s kinda a cop out is it not? We can`t turn him because he makes us too much money. There has only been one profitable wrestling company in the United States in the last 14 years. There's a reason for this. Â Thinking back to the greatest heel turn in history, how much more revenue did WCW generate with the sale of NWO mechandise after Hogan turned ? let alone reinvigorating the product and attracting new fans when they took a tired old babyface with a stale act and freshened him up. Hogan wasn't even on TV for months before he turned heel. His contract was running out in late 1996 and with Hall and Nash increasing television ratings and the Flair and Savage feud becoming the first program to do huge business on house shows, Hogan was probably headed back to the WWF on a much lower contract than his WCW one. Hogan certainly was the drawing card for WCW in July 96 that John Cena was for the WWE in 2013. The comparison is so played out and not valid at all. WCW had Flair, Savage, Hall, Nash, Sting, Luger and The Giant at the time. If WWE had that talent depth they might have turned Cena by now. Â You dont have to like it, but thats just how things are. There are many things about wrestling I hate in 2013, but to say their decisions are dumb to not turn the one full timer who moves the numbers is ridiculous. Â Â I said no such thing. Â I completely understand why Cena is the top man, I also get the fact that WWE gave Punk the ball and told him to run with it, he just couldn`t keep up with Cena. My major gripe with WWE and Cena, and has been for a number of years, is the character itself, it`s stood still, it`s hasn`t evolved at all in years. He`s the same never give up, overcome the odds, smiling, white meat babyface he was in 2005, the only difference is he wears his own merchandise now instead of the local sports franchise. 8 solid years of the same character starts to wear thin after a while. That`s my gripe. Freshen him up, do something different. You can only rest on your laurels for so long. Â The comparison with Hogan circa 96 is valid( I feel) despite your argument to the contrary. 17 years have passed and it can easily be forgotten how big a deal it was to turn Hogan heel, Hulk Hogan turning heel. That was a massive risk by WCW back then, it paid off. With the exception of Nash and Hall, WCW still had all the aformentioned talent when they were losing money under Jim Herd. It was Hogans turn that really set them apart and made people take interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members IANdrewDiceClay Posted April 9, 2013 Author Paid Members Share Posted April 9, 2013 It was Hogans turn that really set them apart and made people take interest. It really wasn't. The house shows caught fire in early 96 with Savage and Flair and the Elizabeth heel turn. It was the success on the road and the increase in television ratings which lead to them signing Hall and Nash. Â Nobody is saying Hogan's heel turn wasn't big. Because it was. But Hogan's heel turn didn't change WCW's fortunes over night. WCW had turned the corner months before while Hogan was filming the Secret Agent Club. Hogan needed to turn heel for his own career. Not to turn WCW into a financial juggernaut. Hogan was on his arse and Cena isn't so the comparison is lazy at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Egg Shen Posted April 9, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted April 9, 2013 tribute to the crowd. Â what's the reasoning behind the crowd having so much then? it makes everything so much better, the guys in the ring respond to it, the commentators sounded like they were genuinely enjoying themselves as well, shame it doesn't happen very often Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PowerButchi Posted April 9, 2013 Moderators Share Posted April 9, 2013 WCW had Flair, Savage, Hall, Nash, Sting, Luger and The Giant 17 years have passed and it can easily be forgotten how big a deal it was to turn Hogan heel, Hulk Hogan turning heel. That was a massive risk by WCW back then, it paid off. With the exception of Nash and Hall, WCW still had all the aformentioned talent when they were losing money under Jim Herd. It was Hogans turn that really set them apart and made people take interest. Â Eh? Jim Herd was gone about 3 years before Savage, Giant and Hogan went to Atlanta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBigBoot Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 I don't get that Herd comparison at all. It's not just the "aforementioned talent" that had changed but the whole company since they were losing that money under Herd. Â Other than Arn, Luger, Sting, DDP and The Steiners (and even then it's a bit of a stretch since they'd only just come back) WCW's talent pool was totally different from the end of Jim Herd's era in late 1991 and WCW when Hall and Nash came back in 1996 at least as far as guys who were in pushed roles on TV. Schiavone and (obviously) Bischoff were still around in terms of presentation but other than that most of it had changed a lot. Â Gone were Jim Ross, Richard Morton, Thomas Rich, The Freebirds, Young Pistols, El Gigante, Windham, Steamboat, Rude, Austin, Dustin, Cactus, Abdullah, Missy, Dangerously, Simmons, Big Josh, Z-Man, Diamond Studd, Oz, Van Hammer, PN News, Mr Hughes and part-time Vader. In were Heenan, Flair, Giant, Wright, Benoit, Harlem Heat, Konan, Regal, Savage, Mean Gene, Malenko, Sullivan, Hogan, Zodiac, Disco Inferno, The Faces of Fear, Duggan, The Nasty Boys and Public Enemy. Totally different rosters in terms of the guys who were put out there to wrestle for titles/draw ratings/sell merch/appear on PPV. Â Not saying one roster is better than the other but the idea that one set didn't draw so it means the other set wouldn't isn't true. WCW had a lot of problems in those years but a stagnant talent pool during those years wasn't one of them. Â Or to put it another way the guys Herd was selling us as characters to invest in at the end of his run, were not the same guys Bischoff and Sullivan were selling us as people worth spending money on in the early Nitro period. Â The guys who were still around tended to be the Eaton/Armstrong type guys who weren't really the focus of Nitro. I'm sure we can point to JTTS or guys from the Herd era who were now used in totally different roles (Taylor, Zbyzsko) and say "such and such" was still around but three changes of management and four and a bit years later there really wasn't much talent left over from '91 by the time Hall and Nash came back in. They were always bringing in new stars, losing old ones to the WWF/Japan or bringing back former talent. Â It's a bit like saying WWF in 1996 had the same talent as it was in 1991 because they still had Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels. They weren't the same and neither were WCW. So in terms of drawing it isn't even a fair comparison. Â Oh, and I agree turning Hogan was a massive deal. Made sense for him given where his career was at the time and it's something that had been discussed a lot but it still wasn't something I wasn't sure he'd do until he actually did it. Â Back on topic, that was a fun show. Will comment on it and WM if I get the time at the end of the week. My biggest complaint is they failed to set up much that interests me for the year going forward but as a stand alone Raw I thought this was good fun, helped by the liveliest crowd in a few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Stephens Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 Does anyone know why they done a Twitter vote to decide who would face Big Show and then completely ignore the result and have Orton vs Sheamus instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapnut Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 Probably just to get something else WWE-related trending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Arch Stanton Posted April 9, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted April 9, 2013 It's a real shame that crowds like that don't come together more often. Totally made the show. All the hardcores come to town for Mania and stick around for Raw, that's why it's so red hot. It's a completely different make-up to the crowds they get week in week out the road. Â Have to say that I really didn't see that as a heel turn for Ryback. They can easily do him versus Cena with them both face. Last night made him look a million dollars though, which was great after such a disappointing finish to his match at Mania. Â Henry was super trash talking Cena during their match... 'Dance now!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Chest Rockwell Posted April 9, 2013 Moderators Share Posted April 9, 2013 The crowd were hot, of course. But there was a lot more of them than you get for your average Raw though too; you can't discount that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Kaz Hayashi Posted April 9, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted April 9, 2013 It was fucking brill. Â Â And no, you cant turn Cena, regardless of the money he generates, the smarks will just start to cheer him anyway, so whats the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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