8/4/13 Raw discussion *pre show spoilers*

[DJM]

Perhaps if there were better babyfaces that connected, heels wouldn't be cheered.

Don't confuse pops and heat. Its why the biggest drawing card in the business is booed every single week, yet they can't turn him because the revenue he generates to the fans who aren't there to get themselves over is astronomical. If pops were the measuring stick of what makes a star they'd bring the likes of Slick back as a regular character.

They cannot turn Cena because they do not have anyone else to replace him as the top face in the company or anyone anywhere near him, which is the fault of WWE. As some have already said, the current crop of babyfaces are awful.

[Ric Flair's Divorce Lawyer]

Loved Raw this week - the crowd were fantastic. In my opinion it seemed like a football type crowd so it must have been the Brits leading the crowd.

 

I think all the crowd cheering the heels and booing the faces tells us and WWE something. People want to see Ziggler being pushed and Orton to be turned heel for instance. Like JR once said the crowd are usually 100% right.

 

Fandango song is still in my head. "Da da, da da, da da da"

[Sexy Dad]

Thank God we didn't have to sit through a long Henry/Cena match and hopefully we can have Henry leave the main event picture again now after one week. Ryback turning on Cena was good, but he is almost as worthless as Ziggler at this point. He has lost far too many times (in big matches) for him to be a good threat to Cena. Also, if they had the idea for a Cena/Ryback feud before Mania, why did Ryback lose to Henry at Mania?

 

The sheetz are saying that Rock was due to face Cena at Extreme Rules, this is likely part of the 'rewrites' to the script. Sometimes shit going wrong makes the product that much more entertaining, there's no chance Ryback would have made such an impact last night if Rock had been there.

 

On reflection, it has been The Rock's return which derailed Ryback's momentum he had late last year which under normal circumstances should have resulted in a title win if not for The Rock returning at the Rumble. Quite poetic that now Rock leaving can give him a chance to shine again but under a new persona perhaps.

[Statto]

A moment that encapsulates why John Cena is a great pro-wrestler, and perfect for the spot he's in :

 

The crowd are singing Fandango's music in a way which no-one could have predicted. At the start of his match with Henry, Cena ducks a swing and starts dancing to it. That's what pro wrestling is about, not this serious nonsense. It's why everyone is saying the show last night was great - because it was fun & a laugh.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

They cannot turn Cena because they do not have anyone else to replace him as the top face in the company or anyone anywhere near him, which is the fault of WWE. As some have already said, the current crop of babyfaces are awful.

CM Punk was a babyface and his reactions were massive consistently. But pops don't translate into box office. Do you honestly think if it was that easy to create someone of the caliber of John Cena they wouldn't have 6 of them on Raw right now? Well done for missing the point.

[visitor from another forum]

Perhaps if there were better babyfaces that connected, heels wouldn't be cheered.

Don't confuse pops and heat. Its why the biggest drawing card in the business is booed every single week, yet they can't turn him because the revenue he generates to the fans who aren't there to get themselves over is astronomical. If pops were the measuring stick of what makes a star they'd bring the likes of Slick back as a regular character.

 

Well I agree with that to a point, but it`s kinda a cop out is it not? We can`t turn him because he makes us too much money.

 

Thinking back to the greatest heel turn in history, how much more revenue did WCW generate with the sale of NWO mechandise after Hogan turned ? let alone reinvigorating the product and attracting new fans when they took a tired old babyface with a stale act and freshened him up.

[JNLister]

"What about a heel turn?"

[IANdrewDiceClay]

Well I agree with that to a point, but it`s kinda a cop out is it not? We can`t turn him because he makes us too much money.

There has only been one profitable wrestling company in the United States in the last 14 years. There's a reason for this.

 

Thinking back to the greatest heel turn in history, how much more revenue did WCW generate with the sale of NWO mechandise after Hogan turned ? let alone reinvigorating the product and attracting new fans when they took a tired old babyface with a stale act and freshened him up.

Hogan wasn't even on TV for months before he turned heel. His contract was running out in late 1996 and with Hall and Nash increasing television ratings and the Flair and Savage feud becoming the first program to do huge business on house shows, Hogan was probably headed back to the WWF on a much lower contract than his WCW one. Hogan certainly was the drawing card for WCW in July 96 that John Cena was for the WWE in 2013. The comparison is so played out and not valid at all. WCW had Flair, Savage, Hall, Nash, Sting, Luger and The Giant at the time. If WWE had that talent depth they might have turned Cena by now.

 

You dont have to like it, but thats just how things are. There are many things about wrestling I hate in 2013, but to say their decisions are dumb to not turn the one full timer who moves the numbers is ridiculous.

[Statto]

Should probably add, I was hugely disappointed there was no WM10 style BS excuse for why the 8-person tag didn't happen at Mania. I was hoping for a tale of how Sandow had stormed off in a huff because one of the Bella's had used incorrect grammar in a tweet, but they'd calmed him down now. Once they got out there, they showed how great a bumper match they COULD have been. Stick that exact match between Taker/Punk & HHH/Brock, & P Diddy between that and Cena/Rock, and you've got a very different feeling Wrestlemania.

 

Dolph's cash-in was done in the second best place they could have done it. He's a huge smarks' favourite, so the right audience, but doing it in front of an 80k strong smark audience would have had the same effect & made him seem a huge deal.

[DJM]

They cannot turn Cena because they do not have anyone else to replace him as the top face in the company or anyone anywhere near him, which is the fault of WWE. As some have already said, the current crop of babyfaces are awful.

CM Punk was a babyface and his reactions were massive consistently. But pops don't translate into box office. Do you honestly think if it was that easy to create someone of the caliber of John Cena they wouldn't have 6 of them on Raw right now? Well done for missing the point.

I never said it was easy to create someone of the caliber of John Cena, but WWE really should be trying to create new babyfaces to help Cena to carry the company (I think they were trying to do something with Sheamus but that seems to have stopped for the moment). As I and others have said, you have John Cena and then there is a huge gap to the next pool of WWE stars; WWE need someone or a few people in the middle.

[PunkStep]

You think they're not trying to create new babyface stars? They've been pushing Sheamus for a couple of years now. They made Punk a high profile face for about a year before turning him. They tried it with Ryback, but perhaps got cold feet on that one. It's not as though they're not trying. They don't grow on trees, it's a gradual feeling-out process. I can't believe people bemoan the WWE for not 'making'another face as big as Cena, as if it were like baking a cupcake.

[DJM]

You think they're not trying to create new babyface stars? They've been pushing Sheamus for a couple of years now. They made Punk a high profile face for about a year before turning him. They tried it with Ryback, but perhaps got cold feet on that one. It's not as though they're not trying. They don't grow on trees, it's a gradual feeling-out process. I can't believe people bemoan the WWE for not 'making'another face as big as Cena, as if it were like baking a cupcake.

Maybe that is one of the problems, that they are not giving some of the talent a chance to develop before they cut them off. Ryback was doing fine and getting over well with some of the fan-base, then they threw him into a no-win situation with Punk and he lost momentum (and then lost more momentum against The Shield and Henry). They have being trying with Sheamus in the past, but again he now seems to be going nowhere fast in a worthless fued with Big Show. Orton is treading on thin-ice, so to a certain extent I can see why they do not really want to push him as one of the next big babyfaces. How Del Rio develops is yet to be seen, but I think I read somewhere that they might have lost faith in him already as well.

[Dirty Eddie]

I think the issue is that it is really hard to get someone on a level where they could (in theory) replace Cena without either A) turning Cena and having him put them over clean as a whistle, or B) actually making them the focus of the WWE for a bit and see how things pan out.

 

You can understand their reluctance to do either of those things, but they can't have it both ways.

 

They've tried making other people "the man" on Smackdown with both Orton and Sheamus and it's failed because no-one watches Smackdown and their World Title is treated just slightly better than the IC/US titles at times. It hasn't helped that Orton is a dull face and Sheamus is about as one-dimensional as you can get.

 

They tried Punk as a top face for a bit, but it was still all in Cena's shadow. Cena was still "the man" and was the focus of the shows. Punk's a 1000 times better as a heel anyway, so that probably worked out for the best.

 

That's also part of the reason why the Cena/Rock match was so flat. They can blab on all they want about Cena's need for redemption after his "awful 2012", but no-one was really buying into it. He's been their top star for 10 years straight with a dozen world title reigns. He's not even slightly sympathetic for a huge chunk of the fans.

 

I never imagined The Rock would come back at Wrestlemania and pretty much have a total borefest in the main event. The announcers tryng to put over the "magic moment" of the handshake was embarrassingly funny.

[Mr Butternut Squash]

I don't think anyone in the company for the last several years has had the tools to be 'the guy' apart from Cena. There has, however, been times when guys could/should have gotten to a higher level then what they're at but fell short, whether it's been the company's ineptness/laziness/playing safety or just bad luck. Making stars is more about pushing guys though. It's about presentation, good storytelling, compelling feuds, distinct CHARACTERS.

[d-d-d-dAz]

I think it's archaic to even discuss John Cena in 'face' and 'heel' terms.

 

He is neither of those things.

 

He's a character designed to represent an 'everyman', but an exaggerated one (that's retarded, I know). He's not infallible. He doesn't do dastardly, villainous things because, in general, real people don't. And, whilst he can be nicey-nicey-smiley-smiley on occasions, his character has also shown cockiness, arrogance and vanity on a number of occasions. The spot at Mania last year that cost him the match was vain. But the spot with Rock at WM where they played on last years finish was great and the way he did the arms for the peoples elbow and his face when he hung on to the ropes was pure arrogant smirk. He's got the best arrogant smirk in the business.

 

At this point in his career he's neither heel, nor face, and he can wrestle anyone on the card with ease and only slight alterations to his demeanour. He is just 'Cena' and some people fucking love it (as I do) and others dont. But, the fact is being 'Cena' a) gives WWE a versatility that they'd lose if he became a straight heel and b) generates revenue like no one else in the entire industry right now.

 

That opening segment was amazing.

 

The closing segment was great, too. I don't know if Ryback went into business for himself with his hand gesture but it played to the crowd really well, and he looked amazing. Definitely excited to see more of this side of him. He's clearly got something about him that in one night he's made me forget how much he's been shat on recently.

 

Ziggler looked a fucking megastar. For anyone watching, with that crowd reaction, they'd think they'd seen the second coming. Great for him. He looks amazing with the belt, too. Like he was born to wear it. I just hope he can keep up this momentum. If he can, WWE might just leave a relatively subdued Wrestlemania weekend with two proper stars in Ziggles and Ryback.