d-d-d-dAz Posted July 16 Posted July 16 Disclaimer again that i'm only a passive England supporter, as opposed to a fan, so apologies for a lack of passion, but.. Tuchel got it wrong, but there's no guarantee there was a right answer. Keeping 4 at the back and putting on Rashford or whoever could have just meant a bigger hammering. Before England scored Argentina were in trouble. They had no wide threat, everything was bottled up through the middle and was being choked off by the physical players through the middle (Anderson, Guehi, Stones). Crucially Messi couldn't fart without someone shoving a thumb up his arse. Then, for me what really won the game, was Argentina bringing on some wide threat. They stretched the game, bought some space for Messi and made Tuchel make a decision. What I think is really strange, and this could be manager or players reacting in the moment, but even with 4 fullbacks on the pitch (presumably to stop the crosses), England still played quite narrow and ceded the wings to Argentina. So yeah, Tuchel definitely got it wrong. But there might not have been a right, and Argentina were good despite most pundits pretending they were a passive bystander in a story all about England. Messi makes me love football. Quote
Paid Members Carbomb Posted July 16 Paid Members Posted July 16 (edited) It's ridiculous to suggest Tuchel should go; absolutely entitled mentality. Until Southgate, the quarters of any international tournament was England's regular limit - only got to the semis a couple of times. In the past eight years, it's been two consecutive Euros finals, and two WC semis. That's pretty good going considering all the winners of those competitions have had generally better quality across the board. BTW, has Kobbie Mainoo pissed someone off? Managers don't seem to want to bring him on at all. I think Chalobah's the only other England player to get no minutes. Anyway, I'm leaning towards a Spain win. They seem generally more skilful, and they're more than a match for Argentina in the shithousing department. Edited July 16 by Carbomb David Rocastle Quote
Ironic Indie Lad Posted July 16 Posted July 16 14 minutes ago, Carbomb said: BTW, has Kobbie Mainoo pissed someone off? Managers don't seem to want to bring him on at all. I think Chalobah's the only other England player to get no minutes at all. Kobbie Mainoo has scored some fucking brilliant late goals too. 97th minute winner v Wolves, winner v Liverpool at Old Trafford last season which secured Champions League Spot, Equaliser v Lyon to keep United in Europa League in that crazy quarter final second leg... I am sure there's more. Quote
Paid Members Arch Stanton Posted July 16 Paid Members Posted July 16 9 minutes ago, Carbomb said: BTW, has Kobbie Mainoo pissed someone off? Managers don't seem to want to bring him on at all. I think Chalobah's the only other England player to get no minutes at all. Well it's interesting that he clearly didn't piss Michael Carrick off, because he brought him straight back into the United side and the football improved overnight, we went from seventh to a third place finish and I think we took more points than eventual champions Arsenal over that period, with Kobbie as a constant at the heart of the midfield throughout. Interesting that Amorim effectively exiled him and failed spectacularly, playing crap football with zero control or progression through the midfield. Tuchel didn't give him a minute on the pitch and England played crap football with zero control or progression through the midfield. It's not ridiculous to suggest Tuchel should go, England have not been a good team under him. He achieved the minimum expectation in every game England played, then lost as soon as we played another top ten team, just as we have done in every single World Cup since 1998. Quote
MVP RULZ Posted July 16 Posted July 16 I'm not advocating for Tuchel to go for me it's just the bitter disappointment that nothing changed and that last night seemed even more negative than any of Southgates teams ever were. It feels like over the space of 8 years we've learnt nothing and not developed at all as a team when leading from the front Southgate early sides we were all just on a high from actually winning a knockout game again after 12 years of failing to win one at all that it was accepted and not really questioned By the Euros final in 2021 and the failure that was the inability to kick on when leading 1-0 and sitting back inviting pressure from a very beatable Italy side saw more questions asked and by the time of the the last Euros and Southgates departure everyone seemed in agreement we needed someone who was now prepared to take the handbrake off and let the quality of our attacking players see us through rather than rely on holding on with what is an ever increasing shaky defence So last night especially but also I'd guess the tournament as a whole really it's just been so uninspiring to see us playing again more negative football at times especially when the opening game vs Croatia showed what we were capable of when hitting the accelerator for more than 2 minutes. Now of course not saying we should have gone gung ho and subbed Rashford, Watkins and Toney on when leading 1-0 but to go in a completely opposite direction and not even attempt to even play any football at all for 30 mins was just inexcusable for me especially when playing the World champions Tuchel stays but hopefully has learnt a big lesson Quote
Paid Members Carbomb Posted July 16 Paid Members Posted July 16 7 minutes ago, Arch Stanton said: Well it's interesting that he clearly didn't piss Michael Carrick off, because he brought him straight back into the United side and the football improved overnight, we went from seventh to a third place finish and I think we took more points than eventual champions Arsenal over that period, with Kobbie as a constant at the heart of the midfield throughout. Interesting that Amorim effectively exiled him and failed spectacularly, playing crap football with zero control or progression through the midfield. Tuchel didn't give him a minute on the pitch and England played crap football with zero control or progression through the midfield. That's why I'm asking - ten Hag seemed to barely value him at all (I know he was young, but it seemed odd that he wasn't getting valuable experience at the time), Amorim just cut him out, and Tuchel gave him nothing, and I really don't understand why. Quote
Paid Members tiger_rick Posted July 16 Paid Members Posted July 16 (edited) When Reece James came on against Norway instead of Kobbie, it's clear he's not fancied. I know James is one of Tuchel's boys, and he's a great player, but you use Kobbie in that scenario 100 times out of 100. I was gutted last night. Been gutted by England since I was 6 years old so it's nothing new. That felt like such a missed opportunity. I'm not being wise after the event, I didn't really like the changes agaisnt Norway and the way we defended for our lives and when he went ultra cautious after 59 minutes last night, I knew it was wrong. Once they scored, I said to my friend "this isn't going to extra time". I've tried not to bang on about Gareth Southgate during the tournament but I couldn't help it last night on my socials. Gareth was the best England manager of our lifetimes. Yet the growing rhetoric after/during Euro 2024 was that he was too pragmatic, that he was wasting generational attacking talent and that we needed a top manager to get over the line. And two years on, we have a world class manager - no doubt about that - and absolutely nothing has changed. There was still too much caution, a lack of faith in our ability to go and outplay Argentina and an open invitation to the best player there's ever been to run a game that you've allowed to be played in one third of the pitch. I am genuinely bitter that we lost a man like Southgate, who built this culture and pride, for nothing. I don't dislike Tuchel. He's a charismatic guy, he's honest, that Mexico game was an all-time England performance and that second half against Croatia was the most fun 45 minutes in years. But it just wasn't necessary. On the bright side for Gareth Southgate, he's been massively vindicated. I'm not sure where we go next. Obviously we've now got a home Euros and still have an incredible talent pool compared to years past. But I'm not sure Tuchel, good as he is, is the man for this job. I know who was though. Edited July 16 by tiger_rick Quote
Paid Members Arch Stanton Posted July 16 Paid Members Posted July 16 5 minutes ago, Carbomb said: That's why I'm asking - ten Hag seemed to barely value him at all (I know he was young, but it seemed odd that he wasn't getting valuable experience at the time), Amorim just cut him out, and Tuchel gave him nothing, and I really don't understand why. Think you're misremembering Ten Hag's time there, he loved Kobbie and played him all the time, including starting him in the FA Cup victory in which he scored what turned out to be the winning goal. Quote
Paid Members tiger_rick Posted July 16 Paid Members Posted July 16 Would be unfair to suggest Tuchel doesn't value him given he was in the squad. Some really good players, Adam Wharton, Alex Scott and James Garner for starters, weren't picked and he was. Quote
Paid Members Carbomb Posted July 16 Paid Members Posted July 16 20 minutes ago, Arch Stanton said: Think you're misremembering Ten Hag's time there, he loved Kobbie and played him all the time, including starting him in the FA Cup victory in which he scored what turned out to be the winning goal. To be honest, a lot of ETH's time I've just remembered as just unrelenting weirdness, so it makes sense I wouldn't remember that. Quote
Paid Members Wretch Posted July 16 Paid Members Posted July 16 Take a bow, Djed Spence. So much love for that man as he played such a massive part in our 21/22 promotion season. I was delighted to see him sign for Spurs, then equally gutted for him after a series of failed loans that must have crushed the poor lad's confidence. Hopefully now people will realise just how good he can be. Quote
DaGangstanator Posted July 16 Posted July 16 In all honesty, while the tactics to defend a one goal lead for 40 minutes were a poor choice, too much pressure in the penalty box for that long was going to crack England eventually, I don't think sacking Tuchel and putting anyone else in his place is going to get a better result. This is a good team, it won't be for much longer once Kane goes but for now it's an A level team, that's just short of special, and in every tournament we'll beat the easy teams, and the 2nd tier Mexicos and Belgiums and Switzerlands of this world, then lose against the special teams. Quote
Tamura Posted July 16 Posted July 16 I might not be a highly paid football manager, but surely conventional wisdom when you're 1-0 up in a knockout game is to wait for the opposition to commit too many players forward and hit them on the counter-attack and score a second goal? Anyway Argentina showed their complete lack of class with that banner after the match. Whatever people's opinions on the sovereignty dispute, you can't imagine the England team holding up a banner saying "The Falklands are British" can you? Quote
Paid Members tiger_rick Posted July 16 Paid Members Posted July 16 They still haven't got over that invasion by Jeremy Clarkson. Quote
Paid Members Jazzy G Posted July 16 Paid Members Posted July 16 I'm sure FIFA, the champions of keeping football and politics separated, will take swift, decisive action over it. Quote
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