RedRooster Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 31 minutes ago, FLips said: What a good angle is is subjective but in terms of good/memorable/famous angles that weren't famous for being bad... Kane's debut/feud/relationship with The Undertaker never and to this day still doesn't really make sense. Hogan vs Rock had an attempted murder in it Austin vs HHH likewise had an attempted murder in it Shane McMahon vs Vince McMahon/Shane just swooping in and buying WCW The Invasion or any invasion style storylines Any time a champion leaves with the belt or threatens to leave with the belt. That's theft and if they did take it the company would just make a new belt and move on while criminal proceedings took place for said theft. E.g Punk at MITB Wrestling as a concept doesn't make sense and we shouldn't really try and make sense of it either. Like LaGoosh said it's a mad bubble world. Hogan/Rock was a great match, but wasn't much of the build-up notoriously bad? Ignoring that, though - there are accepted rules in the fictional wrestling world, and you can abide by it in most of these cases. But the problem with the Tony Khan angle, for me, is that it doesn't really work unless you consider the wider 'non-kayfabe' world - it breaks the rules they've set for themselves, because the foundation of it is real-life footage. As I say - I think the test to apply is how you would explain it to a non-viewer. "Oh my god, Hulk Hogan ran over The Rock with a truck - you need to watch!" works, I'm not even sure how you would go about explaining how this all began. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members air_raid Posted May 9 Paid Members Share Posted May 9 Survivor Series : Deadly Game is lauded as a masterpiece by many people who watched it at the time, and I’m definitely one that loved it. But pick apart the storylines that got us there… none of them make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRooster Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 3 minutes ago, air_raid said: Survivor Series : Deadly Game is lauded as a masterpiece by many people who watched it at the time, and I’m definitely one that loved it. But pick apart the storylines that got us there… none of them make sense. Are the storylines that got them there lauded as a masterpiece, or is the show itself? I'm not disputing that it has happened, or even that it's happened in angles that have ended up working, I just don't think it's true for most successful angles; at the very least, they make sense in the context of the wrestling world. When you're hot, you can probably get away with that kind of thing more (whether you should get away with it is another question entirely) - but when you've cooled off, as AEW has, you always have to be looking for that next hot angle or storyline. I think this storyline could have been exactly that - you had Tony Khan wearing a neck brace and people talking about AEW on sports programming watched by millions of people - if you wanted to find out what this was all about, I think you'd have struggled to get your head around it, even in the context of the wrestling world. It's the way AEW gets so close with its angles at the moment that I find disheartening. They used to nail their storytelling, and recently, they've come frustratingly close to doing that - but they've not quite managed to get there. There are all of these small (and not so small) issues that, if addressed, could certainly help them regain some level of momentum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members JLM Posted May 9 Paid Members Share Posted May 9 (edited) 1 hour ago, FLips said: Wrestling as a concept doesn't make sense and we shouldn't really try and make sense of it either. Like LaGoosh said it's a mad bubble world. Yeah I have to agree with this. I usually hate “just turn your brain off and enjoy it” in response to criticism of fictional media. When Game of Thrones fell off a cliff towards the end, one of the many things that irked me was characters seemingly teleporting all over the place depending on where the plot needed them to be from scene to scene. I saw responses to that like “this show has DRAGONS in it and you’re worried about people travelling around too fast???” I thought that was a shitty argument because the show’s internal logic had established that people do take ages to get around. Travelling by horse and cart, walking for miles and miles, taking wind powered ships across the seas etc. My counter to that would be, what if Jon Snow turned into an 18 wheeler truck, yelled “Roll out!” And flattened all the white walkers? Even in a show with supernatural and fantasy stuff going on, that would still be preposterous. Pro wrestling though, the internal logic is just fucked isn’t it? Sometimes it breaks the fourth wall, sometimes it doesn’t, sometimes it borrows elements from real life, sometimes it’s pure fiction, sometimes real life stuff is happening and we thought it was fiction, sometimes they try to convince us that the fictional stuff is the real stuff. When it is pure fiction, the rules of that vary so wildly that I don’t know how anyone could hope to pin them down in the same way you would with a tightly written scripted TV show or movie. I love it when they somehow do tell a coherent story that isn’t immediately laughable or doesn’t fall apart when any scrutiny is applied. Despite (and, oddly, sometimes because of) all of the above, the fact they can get me genuinely emotionally invested in this insane form of entertainment when so much of it is nonsense is a huge part of the joy of it. To be honest though, I don’t really expect it to much of the time, nor would I hold it to the same standards I would other more focused fiction with slightly clearer rules. It is the path to either madness or at the very least simply not enjoying it as much. Edited May 9 by JLM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members JLM Posted May 9 Paid Members Share Posted May 9 (edited) I’ve been gushing recently about FTR and Grizzled Young Vets because they do stuff in tag team matches that “makes sense”. They’ve thought about the little details and how a tag team would act if this were a real contest and they were cooperating to try to win it. So in the context of their allotted 20 minutes I can get all beard strokey and appreciate how smart it all is. I praise stuff like that because I enjoy it but also because it’s frankly not the norm. However, I will also enjoy Timeless Toni Storm in the next segment of the same TV show. Edited May 9 by JLM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRooster Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 6 minutes ago, JLM said: I love it when they somehow do tell a coherent story that isn’t immediately laughable or doesn’t fall apart when any scrutiny is applied. Despite (and, oddly, sometimes because of) all of the above, the fact they can get me genuinely emotionally invested in this insane form of entertainment when so much of it is nonsense is a huge part of the joy of it. To be honest though, I don’t really expect it to much of the time, nor would I hold it to the same standards I would other more focused fiction with slightly clearer rules. It is the path to either madness or at the very least simply not enjoying it as much. I think you can get away with some stupidity and daftness, don't get me wrong - Toni Storm is about as OTT as it gets, but I think she's the best thing going in AEW right now. What I mean is, I think everything should work in the context of the fictional wrestling world. I just don't see a way to explain the Elite storyline without the whole situation originating in real life. I'd also add that AEW set a high standard for itself when it comes to things like that - promising long-term logical storytelling, and in the first few years, they definitely delivered - you could point to the carefully thought through storyline between Hangman and The Elite, MJF trying to worm his way into The Inner Circle to destroy it from within, Brodie Lee building up a gang of losers in The Dark Order, so that he could use them to his own benefit, Miro's descent into religious fanaticism. There was some shit in there too (most things Brandi-related), but at least it didn't break the fourth wall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members JLM Posted May 9 Paid Members Share Posted May 9 (edited) Cody Rhodes quitting WWE and doing the whole AEW thing wasn’t part of a WWE fictional storyline then, but it’s part of The Story now. That’s kind of my point, the distinction is so difficult to define that I don’t know if it’s worth trying. I don’t think it’s as simple as whether it can break the fourth wall or not, because sometimes wrestling does that and it’s good, often wrestling does that and it’s dogshit, sometimes wrestling doesn’t do that at all and it’s good, other times… etc. I don’t know what the context of the fictional wrestling world is meant to be, and what rules a story would have to follow to remain within it. It can be merged with reality as much or as little as anyone feels like from angle to angle. How effective that is and how much people like it is debatable, but I’m not sure there is a set of storytelling rules you can apply to a pro wrestling angle, especially since the death of kayfabe. Edited May 9 by JLM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRooster Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 (edited) 45 minutes ago, JLM said: I don’t know what the context of the fictional wrestling world is meant to be, and what rules a story would have to follow to remain within it. It can be merged with reality as much or as little as anyone feels like from angle to angle. How effective that is and how much people like it is debatable, but I’m not sure there is a set of storytelling rules you can apply to a pro wrestling angle, especially since the death of kayfabe. What I mean by that is that I don’t personally think it should veer into the territory of an angle requiring the reality of wrestling being predetermined, and wrestling being fictional, for it to work. I’m not sure if ‘worked-shoot’ applies here, but it’s perhaps something approaching that. I think you should be able to explain Perry’s suspension and reappearance in a way that is consistent with the storyline world - much as people (including me!) were calling for WWE to explain why Cody briefly gave up his title shot in the run-up to Wrestlemania. That’s where this is falling short for me. Edited May 9 by RedRooster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBacon Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 52 minutes ago, JLM said: My counter to that would be, what if Jon Snow turned into an 18 wheeler truck, yelled “Roll out!” And flattened all the white walkers? Even in a show with supernatural and fantasy stuff going on, that would still be preposterous. Terribly sorry to go wildly off topic, but this would've been brilliant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members air_raid Posted May 9 Paid Members Share Posted May 9 1 hour ago, RedRooster said: Are the storylines that got them there lauded as a masterpiece, or is the show itself? The show. People raved about the storylines, then they loved the show. Oblivious to the fact that both turns rendered the storylines as nonsense in at least six different ways. Far more “good” storylines don’t make sense than people want to admit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The King Of Swing Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 No selling big spots is pretty much the norm these days, so I can't really get too annoyed anymore. Just watch any "epic match" these days. Selling like death one second to jumping about and hitting big moves, the next. Overall I really enjoyed Dynamite. OC Vs. Trent was a really fun match and their storyline is moving along nicely, imo. May Vs. Harley was more fun than I expected. Please hire Mina, whenever her Stardom contract runs out. I'm actually into the Copeland/HoB story. Should be noted though that I haven't watched WWE in years so the Copeland stuff actually feels fresh to me. And I tend to enjoy HoB when they actually have some sort of direction. I liked how the Mogul Scrubs didn't immediately turn on Swerve and they dragged it out a little. Good promos from Deeb, Storm, Willow and Mercedes. More please. Enjoyed Jericho's match with Shibata, last week but I thought the promo this week was shit. Don't care how much he leans into critisms of himself, just isn't doing anything for me. Decent closing segment. Was hoping for Mox (guessing his IWGP Title reign means less of him on AEW TV) but I'll settle for Danielson. Could have been worse of course. Jericho could have wormed his way into the match. Crowd sounded fine to me. Not the hottest by far but not as bad as some people say, imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chili Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 Ugh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIDDUM_N_STYLE Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 2 hours ago, Chili said: Ugh! And then you get creepy dorks like this clown actually BLAMING Skye for ‘showing so much ass’ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members air_raid Posted May 10 Paid Members Share Posted May 10 8 hours ago, The King Of Swing said: No selling big spots is pretty much the norm these days, so I can't really get too annoyed anymore. Just watch any "epic match" these days. Selling like death one second to jumping about and hitting big moves, the next. Just because something starts becoming the norm, doesn’t mean we can’t protest to try and stop it. We’ve let thickos get away with “could of” for long enough, buggered if we should stand by and let selling quietly disappear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 5 hours ago, RIDDUM_N_STYLE said: creepy dorks Welcome to the UKFF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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