CM Punk chat

[Lion_of_the_Midlands]

It may have been said before but this is how I feel about Cody. When he decided to leave WWE the first time and go and work Japan/Indies it made no sense to me at all. Cody is the most WWE style wrestler imaginable. It didn't change in Japan or on the Indies and though he was definitely one of the architects of AEW he stuck out like a sore thumb as the least AEW style wrestler on the roster. All his AEW run did was allow him to be seen as an upper card/main event player, which I suppose he never would have been in WWE before he left. Cody is perfectly suited to the WWE, from the corporate glad handing to the promo style to the in ring style. He may not be everyone's cup of tea as a wrestler but I dont think that he could be anywhere more suited to him. 

[Devon Malcolm]

When I'm assessing whether a wrestler is good or not, I'm not just assessing them on their ring work. Their character and promo ability are just as important. I assume other people judge them on different criteria. I don't give a shit if someone has good matches if they've got the charisma of a chopping board.

Edited December 21, 2024 by Devon Malcolm

[Chili]

I really like Cody a lot, but some of his promos where he doesn't sound human and uses big words reminds me of some shyster pulling a pyramid scheme. It's actually not a negative, I almost find it incredibly charming because Cody strikes me as one of those use big words to sound smarter types to me. That and the ending racism. Hard to knock him.

[LaGoosh]

Yeah to me a good wrestler is someone who is the full package - charisma, character work and in ring ability combined.

I would also say it's pretty impossible to have good matches without those first two because they are what creates the essential emotion for a match to work.

Edited December 21, 2024 by LaGoosh

[Chili]

2 minutes ago, LaGoosh said:

Yeah to me a good wrestler is someone who is the full package - charisma, character work and in ring ability combined.

Thanks for bringing up charisma because I've always wanted to know what people judge as charisma. Some people have been cack promos but still have THAT charisma, some for example Brian Cage (a very good worker and what have you), doesn't strike me as having much 'charisma'. I always thought a lot of charisma is in the eyes. Stop saying charisma.

Edited December 21, 2024 by Chili

[d-d-d-dAz]

Charisma is just the ability to command the attention of an entire room without having to go to extremes or make a tit out of yourself.

Most people get there via the gift of the gab, but some do it through a natural physical charisma.

Goldberg is one of the most charismatic wrestlers of all time, yet also one of the worst promos.

Edited December 21, 2024 by d-d-d-dAz

[Devon Malcolm]

I'm assuming people criticising Cody Rhodes for overly verbose promos are doing so based off his AEW work. Because he really hasn't been like that in WWE.

[d-d-d-dAz]

2 minutes ago, Devon Malcolm said:

I'm assuming people criticising Cody Rhodes for overly verbose promos are doing so based off his AEW work. Because he really hasn't been like that in WWE.

He hasn't, but his word choice is occasionally very suspect still. I adore the man, but there's a thin slither of insecurity to him where you can tell he's constantly concerned that people might consider him 'that dumb pro wrestler'.

His best promos in WWE have been when he's had to do a run-in before or something and he's a little out of breath and worked up, because he seems a bit looser and more willing to speak normally.

[LaGoosh]

4 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said:

Most people get there via the gift of the gab, but some do it through a natural physical charisma.

Goldberg is one of the most charismatic wrestlers of all time, yet also one of the worst promos.

Yeah exactly!  Charisma is so often linked to promos ability but that's wrong. Think of someone like Jeff Hardy who is a terrible promo but people just loved that motherfucker. No one ever talked about his bad promos because he has an innate, natural charisma where he doesn't even need to be good at them. 

[RedTwoster]

18 minutes ago, LaGoosh said:

It's not a case of "It's not my thing, but I can see they're good". There's plenty of wrestlers I see like that. 

I genuinely do not think Cody or Rollins are good wrestlers. I think their matches are bad and they are bad wrestlers.

If you do  - great! Enjoy. But it's probably not worth discussing what makes wrestling good when opinions are that far apart as we clearly won't agree on anything. It's all good.

With that in mind, I’m curious as to what you think of Cody/Dustin and Cody/Aldis?

I’d throw in a few of his WWE matches (Reigns/Cody from this year’s ’Mania being my MOTY), but I suspect you haven’t seen them. 

[SuperBacon]

I do love it when people say Cody doesn't sound human when he's doing a promo or whatever.

He's a wrestler cutting an in ring promo, usually about how he's gonna win a match against another wrestler, or defend his belt, or something that only exists within wrestling.

He's not chatting to you about the incredibly cheap price of veg in supermarkets at the moment down the pub.

[Hannibal Scorch]

2 hours ago, SuperBacon said:

I do love it when people say Cody doesn't sound human when he's doing a promo or whatever.

He's a wrestler cutting an in ring promo, usually about how he's gonna win a match against another wrestler, or defend his belt, or something that only exists within wrestling.

He's not chatting to you about the incredibly cheap price of veg in supermarkets at the moment down the pub.

Next you’ll be trying to gaslight us that Michael Owen and Jake Humphrey sound completely normal when they talk.

@Devon Malcolm I agree on his promos have been shorter in WWE and probably tighter, but he still does that bite his lip thing when he’s being REALLY dramatic and it’s not normal man

[tiger_rick]

Love Gooshy's posts in here. He's absolutely right about WWE matches. They've been this way for a very long time. It's not good pro-wrestling. It's a very good TV show about pro-wrestling. 

I'd disagree that the guys aren't good wrestlers. I think they teach the fundamentals well and you can see them when someone from that environment turns up in AEW versus when someone comes in from the indies. 

I don't think the issue is that they aren't good wrestlers. Gunther, KO, Punk, Roman, Cody, Drew and Sami are all outstanding and have had brilliant matches. It's the way that matches are generally presented in that environment that limits them, IMO. The pacing, the working to cameras, the phony talking bits that got introduced,  the way it always feels the same. 

Genuinely, I hoped it would be one of the things a student of the industry like Triple H would resolve right away but from anything I've seen and heard, it's the same as ever other than the occasional oddity like Hell In A Cell. I suppose NXT in his image should really have been a clue.

Delighted for anyone who enjoys it. Honestly, go nuts. But massively sceptical of any time I hear there's been a great match. I can't remember the last time I saw one in the company. 

I know I'm a miserable old bastard and I've said this before but go watch Austin v Bret from Mania 13 and the difference is clear. (I appreciate that is one of the best matches in the industry but the point stands.) The way it's worked and shot is wrestling. The way the cameras capture the action and the way the commentators relay the story is the starting point for how wrestling should be thought of. The company was an absolute mess at the time but the environment could produce solid gold like that. These days they are an incredible business and a meticulous production and they couldn't produce something half as good in a million years.

Great discussion. Have very much enjoyed catching up on all the posts.

[LaGoosh]

9 minutes ago, tiger_rick said:

Genuinely, I hoped it would be one of the things a student of the industry like Triple H would resolve right away but from anything I've seen and heard, it's the same as ever other than the occasional oddity like Hell In A Cell. I suppose NXT in his image should really have been a clue.

It's a surprise to me. I'm not a huge fan of Triple H as a wrestler but his work was always solid, convincing, aggressive and competitive. The NWA influence was always clear. I don't get why the wrestling he's putting on is pretty much the opposite of that.

[DavidB6937]

9 minutes ago, LaGoosh said:

 The NWA influence was always clear. I don't get why the wrestling he's putting on is pretty much the opposite of that.

I think WWE's success vs where NWA is in 2024 answers that quite easily.

That's not to say that there's not room for something like that. The basics and fundamentals will always work to a point. But the WWE audience of now have different expectations. Its not that surprising that HHH wouldn't necessarily deliver on what he used to love etc.

And all this discussion of "good" wrestlers and "good" wrestling is a massively subjective and opinion based thing anyway. There's rarely going to be an agreement. Luckily there's so many options that people can watch another company or stick some older stuff on or whatever else. And that's great. 

It just gets a bit silly when we start talking about guys who are the most over in the biggest companies and have won multiple titles not being good wrestlers. They obviously are. They wouldn't be where they are if they weren't good. They're just not your type and that's fine.

WWE is wrestling. AEW is wrestling. All the way down to those questionable death match companies or whatever. Its all wrestling! Just like you get the horror genre but within that there's so many sub genres. A slasher is no more or less horror than a ghost story or whatever. It's just different and people are into different things. Marvel vs DC. Old Doctor Who vs New Doctor Who. All these crazy in fights over changes. It happens all over the bloody place so not just wrestling.

At the end of the day we all like what we like within the wrestling industry and across wrestling history. But it's still wrestling. The broad nature of it is one of the best things.