CM Punk chat

[LaGoosh]

26 minutes ago, DavidB6937 said:

It just gets a bit silly when we start talking about guys who are the most over in the biggest companies and have won multiple titles not being good wrestlers. They obviously are. They wouldn't be where they are if they weren't good.

I'm not sure I'd agree with that personally. For me it veers into "it's popular so it must be good" which I don't think is true and also shuts down any fair criticism, discussion or analysis. There's plenty of examples in wrestling history of this not being the case.

26 minutes ago, DavidB6937 said:

Marvel vs DC

Interesting you mentioned Marvel. From my experience of watching WWE this year what immediately struck me was how clearly influenced by the MCU the booking, stories and presentation is. It's no wonder they've had such massive success by doing a wrestling version of their formulae. They've definitely got their finger on the pulse on what the masses want to consume.

Edited December 22, 2024 by LaGoosh

[d-d-d-dAz]

What is always true, is there'll be a generation of people who in 10 years or so will be talking about this era as the best. Talking about Gunther matches or Punk/Drew or Roman/Cody as being 'what pro wrestling is' and bemoaning why the new head booker isn't doing it like they used to.

It's age more than anything. If this generation consider this version of wrestling worth watching, then that is what wrestling is now. If the business is as hot as its been in 25 years, then what we're watching now will be what defines what wrestling is for those new fans.

I tend to agree in the main that the matches aren't what they used to be, but think there's pockets of excellence within that. In general I prefer non-WWE matches more regularly than WWE matches, but when WWE gets it right - when their match becomes a logical extension or conclusion of the thrilling story they're telling, then that for me is the absolute best.

And, to go back to the topic, it's why I think CM Punk is shining again. He's very good at converting a wrestling story and putting that into a match, making the match a part of something bigger. With their stories currently very good, he's in his element.

FWIW; For me, the best wrestling matches ever are probably Piper/Hart and Savage/Flair from Wrestlemania 8. Yet, I imagine anyone under the age of 25 watching those now would probably assume I was senile.

Edited December 22, 2024 by d-d-d-dAz

[Chili]

Because I do like him even though I want one final big tantrum (he will not let me down), Punk is a bit like Jake Roberts for me. Jake Roberts was not the best worker but had that psychology to make his matches and angles really mean something more than usual. Punk does that too, in-ring, a much more exciting worker, but has that zing that makes a good programme into a great one (the run with Drew or him and Eddie Kingston giving out). Even shite like bracelets didn't really get in the way. He's very good at that aspect and it's something everyone should enjoy unless they take not liking him to a person displeasure, which I understand because I've met wrestling fans.

Edited December 22, 2024 by Chili

[LEGIT]

I think the question "what is a good wrestler" is so hard to answer and a lot of the time people miss the point. 

For example, I always was and still am a fan of Lex Luger, who most would probably rate as a bad wrestler when judging in terms of in ring ability, or even promos etc. But he was really good imo, did the basics right and built from there. Obviously having such a good body helped. But he was extremely over at points and was involved in classic moments and matches, so all that makes him a great wrestler in my mind. 

Someone like Eddie Guerrero for example would score much higher with people in terms of in ring ability and promos, but I'd rate him about the same as Lex Luger. Both connected with fans and were over, were involved in classic matches and angles. They were completely different, but both fulfilled their role well, and both should be looked at as great wrestlers.

[LaGoosh]

19 hours ago, RedTwoster said:

With that in mind, I’m curious as to what you think of Cody/Dustin and Cody/Aldis?

I haven't seen the Aldis match. Cody/Dustin was pretty good but that felt more like a Dustin match than a Cody one and Dustin is obviously fantastic. But I think that match felt so special and exciting due to the time it happened (and the massive juice job which people hadn't seen in years), I'm not convinced it's a classic or will hold up.

I haven't watched Cody/Reigns. I can't imagine I'd like much about it.

I think both Cody and Seth were decent enough midcarders (especially in tags) but are bad main event singles wrestlers.

To keep somewhat on topic it's a shame Punk won't be wrestling on TV weekly because the younger guys could learn a lot from going 10 minutes with him. It's a shame that the art of the good TV match is dying off. Back in the day guys like Christian, Matt Hardy, Finlay and Goldust were absolute masters of it.

Edited December 22, 2024 by LaGoosh

[RedTwoster]

19 minutes ago, LaGoosh said:

I haven't watched Cody/Reigns. I can't imagine I'd like much about it.

It’s definitely one that benefits from viewing it live and not knowing what’s to come - I love it even on repeat viewing, but  my guess is that you wouldn’t like it - which is fair enough!

19 minutes ago, LaGoosh said:

To keep somewhat on topic it's a shame Punk won't be wrestling on TV weekly because the younger guys could learn a lot from going 10 minutes with him. It's a shame that the art of the good TV match is dying off. Back in the day guys like Christian, Matt Hardy, Finlay and Goldust were absolute masters of it.

It definitely still exists - and in WWE you can’t go wrong with a Sheamus match, I honestly think he’s one of the best around right now. I’d actually love to see modern day Sheamus wrestle Punk, I could see that being the closest WWE can get to the brilliant Eddie Kingston/Punk match in AEW.

Edited December 22, 2024 by RedTwoster

[Hannibal Scorch]

@LaGooshCody/Reigns is the wrestling equivalent of Deadpool and Wolverine. Don’t do it to yourself! I watched it live and well..

[d-d-d-dAz]

30 minutes ago, Hannibal Scorch said:

@LaGooshCody/Reigns is the wrestling equivalent of Deadpool and Wolverine. Don’t do it to yourself! I watched it live and well..

To be fair, this is probably a very accurate description - though maybe not the dunk it appears.

Like Deadpool v Wolverine the match was hugely anticipated, was a massive financial success, was critically well received and fans really liked it... but if you don't like the genre you're probably best watching something else.

Edited December 22, 2024 by d-d-d-dAz

[Hannibal Scorch]

1 minute ago, d-d-d-dAz said:

To be fair, this is probably a very accurate description - though maybe not the dunk it appears.

Like Deadpool v Wolverine the match was hugely anticipated, was a massive financial success, was critically well received and fans really liked it... but if you don't like the genre you're probably best watching something else.

Can’t disagree. I’m an unashamed MCU fan, but the reason for the comparison of course 

Spoiler

It was the cameos that were there for the sake of ISN’T THIS COOL, YOU REMEMBER THIS PERSON RIGHT? 

The match was pretty standard Roman title defences, it was fine if you enjoyed his many other big stage performances, but it felt safe. And sometimes that’s what people want and to all those that enjoyed it, more power to you. But I really didn’t like it.

[d-d-d-dAz]

Just now, Hannibal Scorch said:

Can’t disagree. I’m an unashamed MCU fan, but the reason for the comparison of course 

  Hide contents

It was the cameos that were there for the sake of ISN’T THIS COOL, YOU REMEMBER THIS PERSON RIGHT? 

The match was pretty standard Roman title defences, it was fine if you enjoyed his many other big stage performances, but it felt safe. And sometimes that’s what people want and to all those that enjoyed it, more power to you. But I really didn’t like it.

Oh, I don't think anyone mistook you for someone who enjoyed it.

Though I do enjoy the slightly arch 'it felt safe, if that's what people want, fine, good for you and your safe tastes'.

Not liking it is a minority opinion, amongst fans. And that's fine, but there's no point pretending that the people that enjoyed it are the odd ones or the outliers.

The majority of people are happy seeing epic stories told by huge stars in front of big audiences. And that's what WWE gave them, and by every conceivable metric it was a huge success.

Not liking it is fine, whatever, who gives a shit. I don't like loads of stuff. But that in itself isn't a virtue, it's just an opinion. 

[DavidB6937]

"It felt safe" is such an odd way of looking at it. What the hell did you want them to do? Go out and have a mat classic where they go all amateur and shock everyone? Or was it a lack of chainsaws?

[LaGoosh]

Yeah there's times where you just have to give the audience exactly what they want even if it is predictable. The main event of Wrestlemania is almost always that time.

[d-d-d-dAz]

6 minutes ago, LaGoosh said:

Yeah there's times where you just have to give the audience exactly what they want even if it is predictable. The main event of Wrestlemania is almost always that time.

Well, I think there's an element of that for sure.

But I'd say the main event in question here offered plenty of fan service and surprises too (a bit like Deadpool v Wolverine, to further the analogy).

It was actually, to speak to the heart of Gooshy and Scorch, a very AEW match in essence. Not in execution necessarily, but in intent. AEW is at its best when it's a celebration of the wild and varied world of professional wrestling; I've described entire events before as feeling like a love letter written by the promotion to the sport for the fans to enjoy. This was that, but for WWE specifically. The entire main event was a celebration of WWE through the years. It was big, over the top, silly but if you're even partly bought into that universe? It was great. It was Triple H, Cody and Roman (and guests) writing a love letter to WWE for WWE fans to enjoy, a celebration of that company and its history. 

I think, with a clear head, you'd probably appreciate that without actually enjoying the match.

Edited December 22, 2024 by d-d-d-dAz

[Chili]

Is this the Roman/Cody match from this year's Mania. Because that was great bollocks and nonsense that. Every bell and whistle in the area was used for that match. A great example of when WWE proper nail what you expect the WWE main event to be. Except the Undertaker bit but that wasn't on him.

[BomberPat]

It was nonsense, but it was basically a version of Sting vs. Triple H that made sense. Just a succession of easy pops instead of a simple, coherent story. But it worked, and that's all that matters.