Paid Members LaGoosh Posted July 3, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted July 3, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Joe Blog said: Sorry to be off topic but can someone very briefly break down Austin's heel turn, I was not watching a great deal back then. Turned heel for power trip, stayed heel when he did his bullying if Spike etc, became Vince's best mate, then joined alliance is my understanding but I could be wrong. Edit: where does the Mania turn fit into it all? Turned heel at Mania by joining with Vince to win the title from The Rock because he was obsessed with winning the title, started The Power Trip so he and HHH could hold all the belts, was Vince's best mate during the early days of the WCW invasion, felt hurt and rejected by Vince not accepting his friendship and getting close to Kurt Angle so joined the Alliance. The day after the Alliance were finally defeated was randomly a babyface again. Edited July 3, 2020 by LaGoosh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members CleetusVanDamme Posted July 3, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted July 3, 2020 (edited) I can't remember his actual turn but Poochie-era Daniel Bryan was a channel-changer for me. That segment after he'd got injured so Steph asked him to give the title back and he responds by literally throwing a temper tantrum, stomping his feet and screaming "NO! NO! NO!" and the crowd eats it up will always baffle me. 4 hours ago, Pinc said: The hard reset of Austin as a face the night after Survivor Series Austin turning face again was one of the most product-damaging runs I've ever seen. Not only did it fuck up the natural main event of Wrestlemania, Triple H's return and what should have been a proper coronation as a top babyface (which they'd already fucked up once following WM17). He killed the NWO off immediately upon their arrival and stunk out the building almost (the Flair match on Raw was really good) every match he had. Awful. Edited July 3, 2020 by CleetusVanDamme Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Chris B Posted July 3, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted July 3, 2020 3 hours ago, LaGoosh said: Turned heel at Mania by joining with Vince to win the title from The Rock because he was obsessed with winning the title, started The Power Trip so he and HHH could hold all the belts, was Vince's best mate during the early days of the WCW invasion, felt hurt and rejected by Vince not accepting his friendship and getting close to Kurt Angle so joined the Alliance. The day after the Alliance were finally defeated was randomly a babyface again. Not a correction, but some hopefully-worthwhile context. Austin had been off injured for some time, and the show didn't miss a step while he was away. If anything, it got better. So when he was back, he fit a little awkwardly into the scene. And people were into Rock in a big way. Since he'd come back, he was more violent too. The biggest difference was that HHH was more of a wrestler, and The Rock was no slouch. During Austin's reign, it had been more of a punch-kick affair (to protect his neck). So, while this may just have been me, it felt like it had all moved on a little bit. He was feeling a bit stale and like he was being overshadowed. He had a good (if over-blown) 3 Stages of Hell match with HHH, but HHH was having good matches with everyone at that point. Sure, he'd beaten Rock at Mania before, but now, Rock was majorly on the rise. And this started playing into the character - Austin was worried that Rock had overtaken him, so he needed to prove he was still the guy by beating him. And it seemed to play into reality as well. Austin knew he had to make some changes and couldn't be 1998 Austin anymore. The timing was perfect. And the overall audience was ready. Austin selling out and joining forces with McMahon because he'd lost confidence in himself was perfect. The story of the match was perfect - Austin can't put Rock away, no matter what he tries, so eventually just takes the only option left and accepts help to brutally destroy The Rock. There was just one problem. Wrestlemania was in Texas. And that crowd, that night, was absolutely not going to to boo Austin. It might have been a challenge for any audience, but that audience was absolutely not going to. He was their boy. So that meant that the turn didn't quite work, and they had to spend the next few weeks doing everything they could to establish it. One unexpected bonus of the whole thing? Austin spent that year wrestling like he hadn't in years. The HHH match might have been a fluke, but the Rock match was absolutely both of them bringing it. And Austin was on form for most of the year, with that great Angle feud in particular.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members LaGoosh Posted July 4, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted July 4, 2020 Didn't really help that Austin spent a significant portion of his heel run doing the best comedy in wrestling history either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeRobertsParoleOfficer Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 2 hours ago, LaGoosh said: Didn't really help that Austin spent a significant portion of his heel run doing the best comedy in wrestling history either. It was fantatsic https://youtu.be/eIRVxrNDvJs  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted July 4, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted July 4, 2020 9 minutes ago, JakeRobertsParoleOfficer said: It was fantatsic https://youtu.be/eIRVxrNDvJs  My favourite bit of that video is the first bit when he's showing her how to answer the phone and how she bounces in her seat when he says he fired Vince. She really wanted it to be true, bless her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Jazzy G Posted July 4, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted July 4, 2020 Echo me for the Orton one the night after he won the belt from Benoit at Summerslam. Turning a heel face by having his buddies turn on him like that should have worked, but Orton is just such a natural heel, and carried on being Randy Orton, but opposing heels. For a turn to work I've always felt like there should be a change in character. The Tatanka turn in 94 was a nice bait and Switch, but like has been mentioned here he was just Tatanka as managed by Ted DiBiase. If he'd started coming out looking like a stereotypical casino owner and flashing the cash then it could have gotten over better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavemanLynn Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 12 minutes ago, jazzygeofferz said: Turning a heel face by having his buddies turn on him like that should have worked, but Orton is just such a natural heel, and carried on being Randy Orton, but opposing heels. This is the kind of turn that never works for me, the face-by-proxy, and this one was an example of HHH not realising, in his desire to emulate Flair, that drawing the attention and focus on himself having the agency of the angle wasn't the same as Flair vs Rhodes, Steamboat or Sting, because Rhodes, Steamboat and Sting were all mega over faces who stepped forward rather than waiting to be pushed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Jazzy G Posted July 4, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted July 4, 2020 6 minutes ago, CavemanLynn said: This is the kind of turn that never works for me, the face-by-proxy, and this one was an example of HHH not realising, in his desire to emulate Flair, that drawing the attention and focus on himself having the agency of the angle wasn't the same as Flair vs Rhodes, Steamboat or Sting, because Rhodes, Steamboat and Sting were all mega over faces who stepped forward rather than waiting to be pushed. It just would have needed more time. Orton gets ousted from Evolution, but there's a rematch with Benoit on the horizon as well, so he has to think about that so he presses on the only way he knows how some squashes on Raw, a couple of "I don't need you because I'm the champion" promos, staying out of their way because of the numbers disasvantage, meanwhile Tripper has established that to teach Orton a lesson he's going to take the title from him. The rematch happens, but Evolution are involved, either Orton manages to win a close match, gets some kind of gesture of respect from Benoit after the match then they both get attacked, or Evolution manage to put him in a position to get an easy win (Flair gets involved ringside etc), and Orton doesn't take it, but still overcomes a now angry, confused Benoit who wonders why they're still helping him in spite of the difficulties. A match of Orton & Benoit Vs Tripper & Batista is booked, but Evolution are still playing games to try and make it hard for Benoit to know whether he can trust Orton, who is becoming less heelish in his demeanour (I know this is a stretch for Orton), and the show before the tag match Orton saves Benoit from an Evolution beatdown, hopefully cementing the face turn. It takes time, any wrestler that turns should have to go through a period of having to earn the trust of the crowd/their peers. Especially in the days of the heel/baby face locker room. Show segments of them having to change in the corridor or toilets because nobody trusts them, arriving and/or leaving alone. Maybe one babyface will take some pity on them and start getting changed with them, so the others see he's alright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members unfitfinlay Posted July 4, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted July 4, 2020 Eddie Guerrero turning heel in 2003 was fucking shit. He was so over as a babyface that it would've taken something really special to get the fans to turn on him. Instead he beat up Tajiri for scratching his car. Nobody gave a fuck. Tajiri was only over because he was Eddie's partner and it was such a comical reason for a turn. Eddie didn't change his character at all either. It was so pointless that I can't remember if they even bothered "officially" turning him back. It was the polar opposite of his turn on Mysterio a few years later, which was brilliant. The last years of WCW are probably an easy target but there was a few really horrible turns there. The Hogan/Flair double turn was probably the worst. It came out of nowhere, made no real sense and it led to Hogan just casually going to back to the babyface character that he'd been shitting on for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted July 4, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted July 4, 2020 16 hours ago, Chris B said: One unexpected bonus of the whole thing? Austin spent that year wrestling like he hadn't in years. The HHH match might have been a fluke, but the Rock match was absolutely both of them bringing it. And Austin was on form for most of the year, with that great Angle feud in particular. Yeah, Austin was on fire in the ring during that 2001 heel run. Aside from the big matches with Rock and Angle, he was also tearing it up in TV matches with Benoit, Spike, Tajiri and RVD. Looking back though, 2001 was probably a big part of why his body seemed to fall apart overnight the following year. He was always on borrowed time after the neck injury in 97, but I’ve always thought that heel run sped up the process and I’m not sure he’d have declined quite so rapidly if he hadn’t spent the bulk of 2001 bumping like early 90s Stunning Steve for Undertaker and Kane and taking a thousand German suplexes from Angle and Benoit. By 2002 he was as knackered physically as his character was burnt out creatively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted July 4, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted July 4, 2020 3 hours ago, unfitfinlay said: Eddie Guerrero turning heel in 2003 was fucking shit. He was so over as a babyface that it would've taken something really special to get the fans to turn on him. Instead he beat up Tajiri for scratching his car. Nobody gave a fuck. Tajiri was only over because he was Eddie's partner and it was such a comical reason for a turn. Eddie didn't change his character at all either. It was so pointless that I can't remember if they even bothered "officially" turning him back. It was the polar opposite of his turn on Mysterio a few years later, which was brilliant. Yeh, the fans just weren't having it. They had Eddie cut one of his sleazy, insincere promos the show after, and they just kept cheering him so much that they just didn't bother trying to keep the heel turn going, and he went back to being a face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoryFice Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 Another turn that I didn't buy at the time was Ahmed Johnson's heel turn in 1997. I was probably too young at the time to understand the "racism" claim, but it certainly didn't make any sense to me why Ahmed would align with his hated enemy for the last year by joining forces with Faarooq. It's also a prime example of one of the (non-Big Show) most pointless turns in history in retrospect. Turns heel, gets injured, then turns back face via his new heel buddies attacking him, the end result being he's a face again but a lot less over than three months previously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pogue Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 I always remember Ahmed Johnson coming out at Royal Rumble '98, one of the Nation shoves him and he just walks on with a face like a slapped arse, who would want to cheer a knob like that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted July 5, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted July 5, 2020 (edited) That whole Ahmed Johnson thing was weird. It was two odd turns in one, and in quick succession. We’d been told at length how Faarooq nearly killed him with that kick to the belly in 96. He’d spent almost an entire year after that hating Faarooq and being attacked on a weekly basis by the Nation Of Domination. Then randomly just joins forces with them? Even as an 11 year old kid I didn’t buy it. The original lineup for One Night Only even had an Undertaker vs Ahmed Johnson match listed. Then as abruptly as he’d joined the Nation, they just kicked him out. Which made a baffling situation even more baffling. Think he was injured again for the 94th time wasn’t he? So that’s how they wrote him off the show. But then he went back to feuding with them and looked like the biggest schmuck going. Here’s this big hard badass and he was willing to join his hated enemies, presumably so they’d stop beating him up, then a week or so later he’s been outsmarted, turned on and battered again. Even if he wasn’t injured all the time, reckless in the ring and getting more bloated by the month, he was dead as a babyface after that. They did look terrifying together though, the NOD and Big T. I’ll give them that. Imagine this coming down the ramp towards you... Edited July 5, 2020 by wandshogun09 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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