The Official UKFF RAW thread (part 2)...

[IANdrewDiceClay]

Triple H is ultimately a football manager these days. Nick Khan his DOF. Ari is the owner. If those Netflix numbers continue to be shit, someones head is rolling. And it will be Triple H. Netflix is the golden goose. If that isnt doing the business, then he's fucked.

[Mr_Danger]

30 minutes ago, tiger_rick said:

I'm not slating the Bloodline "story" because I have watched the super-cut on YouTube and there is plenty of good and funny stuff between them that I can see why people really took to it but wasn't there a huge element of making it up as it went along? The endgame for the Bloodline was never anything to do with Cody as a big example, because he wasn't there. A huge chunk of it took place under Vince. Solo Sikoa was a nobody for a big part of it. It retrofits as some great story but a good section of it was just Roman always winning and Jey Uso pissing about because Jimmy was dead or they'd had another DUI or whatever and then when Sammy Zayn joined and Cody arrived, it all sort of came together. And even then, the end goal was still clearly Roman/Rock.

It's excellent use of what you have and adapting as a booker but it's not brilliant story telling.

That’s a bit ‘pens don’t count’ though isn’t it? It obviously wasn’t all penned out from start to finish and a lot was done on the fly/out of necessity but they told a story and it was mostly great. 

[d-d-d-dAz]

36 minutes ago, tiger_rick said:

I'm not slating the Bloodline "story" because I have watched the super-cut on YouTube and there is plenty of good and funny stuff between them that I can see why people really took to it but wasn't there a huge element of making it up as it went along? The endgame for the Bloodline was never anything to do with Cody as a big example, because he wasn't there. A huge chunk of it took place under Vince. Solo Sikoa was a nobody for a big part of it. It retrofits as some great story but a good section of it was just Roman always winning and Jey Uso pissing about because Jimmy was dead or they'd had another DUI or whatever and then when Sammy Zayn joined and Cody arrived, it all sort of came together. And even then, the end goal was still clearly Roman/Rock.

It's excellent use of what you have and adapting as a booker but it's not brilliant story telling.

I think the answer to this is probably a bit of column A, a bit of column B.

I think it's definitely true that Cody wasn't part of the plan. They had this Bloodline thing that went gangbusters, and then they also had the Cody thing which caught on and ultimately they decided to answer smash the two together to try and get something greater than the sum of its parts.

But I think the overall run of the Bloodline was fairly well calculated and managed over the years. I think long term storytelling in wrestling has to involve some on-the-fly, but broadly speaking the Bloodline was am example of them committing to something, and to certain aims (like getting Jey over, or bringing Solo up) that they achieved.

There's nothing they're doing at the minute which comes close to it's scale or ambition.

It'll be interesting to see whether they go down the route with Cena of that countdown being a ticking clock to get the belt off him, with someone (presumably Cody) achieving it on the final date. That'll be a commitment to something over the long (maybe medium) term, which might help me enjoy the product a bit more.

[tiger_rick]

3 minutes ago, Mr_Danger said:

That’s a bit ‘pens don’t count’ though isn’t it? It obviously wasn’t all penned out from start to finish and a lot was done on the fly/out of necessity but they told a story and it was mostly great. 

I don't think so, not to the point being made. IMO, the greatest story they've ever told is Savage & Hogan between WM4 to WM5. That was a story you could plot all the way through and was executed as planned. Bret & Owen in 1994 is the next best. 

Bret & Austin in 1997 is one of the best things they've ever put on TV. The promos are incredible. The finishes to Survivor Series 96, the Royal Rumble, the Final Four, the cage match on Raw, all incredible moments that drive Bret's incredible heel turn, push Austin's stock through the roof and create a match that is the greatest in the history of the company. If anyone claimed that they wrote a Bret & Austin story though, you'd call utter bollocks on it. Hardly any of it was planned. WM13 wasn't the destination. Shawn being the pathetic bitch of a person he is changed the plot numerous times. It's incredible but it's not a story anyone set out to tell.

For me, if people are going to go around and suggest WWE are the story tellers, there'd need to be an example of a story they set out to tell and told perfectly. Hogan & Savage is. I don't think the Bloodline is.  

[air_raid]

2 hours ago, d-d-d-dAz said:

I still think when Cody won the Rumble and they made a big fuss of him pointing at Roman, at that point they hadn't factored in The Rock as the main event properly. Or at least we're trying to push back against The Rock if he had already floated it.

Nope. It's crazy, but Cody won the Rumble with the main event already planned to be Rock vs Reigns.

On 1/16/2025 at 3:15 PM, air_raid said:

Brian Gewirtz says they discussed plans for Mania 40 the day after Mania 39 and was told that they were planning to do a year-long arc with Cody and then the Cody vs Reigns rematch. As of October 23 Meltzer said he doubts Reigns vs Rock will happen and that if Cody stays hot its planned to be Reigns vs Cody again. In November, "I don't consider (Dwayne) in my way," Rhodes told ESPN. "Maybe he is and I'm being naïve to it. Maybe he wants to get in, I don't know." [Morgan Freeman]He was being naïve to it.[/Morgan] The Rock, Gewirtz, Nick Khan, and Papa H have a meeting in December 2023 where, with Rhodes already pencilled in to win the Rumble again, Dwayne suggests to test the audience's appetite for Rock vs Reigns with the 'head of the table' line and the reaction on Day 1 Raw makes it clear to them it would be reacted to positively. In reality, they were reacting to the possibility of the fight, without realising it would be a wrecking ball to the foundations of Cody winning the big belt at the landmark Mania. Come May, Gewirtz later will say "The idea of Cody winning the Rumble, I thought, was problematic, in full transparency. I said, even in San Diego (after Day 1) in that meeting, I thought the cleanest thing to do, if we’re booking Rock and Roman, is to have Punk win the Rumble and challenge Rollins, just because there is a difference, storyline-wise, in my opinion, of Cody wanting to finish the story, and having earned the right to finish the story by winning the Royal Rumble." He's got a point, Christ!

As of Jan 24 right before the Rumble, Meltzer says Reigns vs Cody has the build but Reigns vs Rock would be better money. Sitting on the fence as ever. Cody has told the world that he was told the very afternoon of the Rumble that the plans had changed to facilitate Rock vs Reigns at Mania. Brian says "Cody and Rock side barred on this. I think Cody's attitude was, 'I don't like the decision, but I understand the business to be done here. I'll go ahead the best that I can do it'." So... what that would leave Rumble-winner Cody with? Punk has stated that he was told without contradiction before his injury and without correction that he would be challenging Rollins for the World title as the main event of night 1. Rollins vs Rhodes was never put to Punk as a possibility before he got hurt - it was never on the table. Gewirtz says that the plan was for the Bloodline to beat Cody up and write him off TV, going ahead with Rock vs Reigns and Punk vs Rollins but when Punk got injured they moved to Rollins vs Cody until DJ himself recognised the revolt was too strong. Cody wasn't even going to wrestle at Mania 40??? Chinny reckon, you'd think. But then, we are talking about plans unmade, remade and shuffled again within the space of about 6-8 hours.

What happened on SmackDown, you know. Brian has suggested Cody didn't look happy enough that Rock was coming in and steamrolling his moment (funny that). "Cody, it was supposed to be, in some form, "Yeah, Fuckin A! Go get em Rock! You’re going to get your ass kicked, Roman! Let’s do this!" and this uplifting promo. Instead, he looked like someone shot his dog in the face in the parking lot." Cody has said of that, "The moment was so real — I guess I didn’t think of myself in a performance sense of "you’re not smiling." The thing I remember is, I wanted to get out of there. I wanted to be gone." Understandable. The fanbase went insane, and so did I. "We Want Cody" trended throughout the weekend. Gewirtz says The Rock called him that weekend and pitched the idea of turning heel. Johnson has since gone on the record saying "My gut says, I don't like, even if it's a segment of fans, I don't like that they're upset, and that really bugged the shit out of me. It's not how I've operated my entire career and I don't like it, and I knew that the choice, essentially, was mine. It was either we truck through this and make this main event, or we don't. I went with the latter and told those guys, 'Here's what I believe we should do.'" Brian, in turn, says "He proposed a tag match, as the main event of WrestleMania. He liked the elements, he liked teaming with Roman, the image of badassery, the throwback to WrestleMania 1 and the tag match that main evented. I said, ‘I love the tag match too, but that can’t be the main event. That can be night one, but I don’t think there is a world that exists anymore that can’t end with Cody beating Roman for the title on night two.’ It was agreed.. Two days after the press conference, I threw out Bloodline rules or everyone is banned from ringside to Rock. Rock loved it. He called Nick (Khan), Ari (Emanuel), he talked to Triple H. I talked to Ed (Kosky) and Bruce (Prichard) on the creative team. Everyone was like, ‘Great, this is what we’re going to do now.’ We’re off to the races, and then everything started flowing."

 

[Mr_Danger]

2 hours ago, tiger_rick said:

I don't think so, not to the point being made. IMO, the greatest story they've ever told is Savage & Hogan between WM4 to WM5. That was a story you could plot all the way through and was executed as planned. Bret & Owen in 1994 is the next best. 

Bret & Austin in 1997 is one of the best things they've ever put on TV. The promos are incredible. The finishes to Survivor Series 96, the Royal Rumble, the Final Four, the cage match on Raw, all incredible moments that drive Bret's incredible heel turn, push Austin's stock through the roof and create a match that is the greatest in the history of the company. If anyone claimed that they wrote a Bret & Austin story though, you'd call utter bollocks on it. Hardly any of it was planned. WM13 wasn't the destination. Shawn being the pathetic bitch of a person he is changed the plot numerous times. It's incredible but it's not a story anyone set out to tell.

For me, if people are going to go around and suggest WWE are the story tellers, there'd need to be an example of a story they set out to tell and told perfectly. Hogan & Savage is. I don't think the Bloodline is.  

That’s fair and when WWE routinely has Canadian/Mexican destroyers as set up moves and AEW has brilliant long term angles I don’t think either set of tribals can use their Wrestling vs Stories narratives anymore. With regards to the long term story telling in WWE in general it’s very hit and miss. As for the Bloodline saga, I don’t think it really matters how the sausage was made it was a delicious sausage either way.

I’ll be surprised if we see much long term storytelling at all going forward. Netflix care about trending and WWE seem to have followed suit. A 20 second reel with millions of impressions will overrule all.

 

That being said, they better not be foreshadowing my best babyface boy turning on Jey with those little belt glances and stares at him on the turnbuckle.

[Hannibal Scorch]

Nick Khan really is the Greatest Showman isn’t he? Ratings were going down and he managed to increase their TV deals, presumably off the back of their 1 Billion social media impressions on their own accounts.

[RedTwoster]

55 minutes ago, Mr_Danger said:

I’ll be surprised if we see much long term storytelling at all going forward. Netflix care about trending and WWE seem to have followed suit. A 20 second reel with millions of impressions will overrule all.

I’m hoping you’re wrong on this one - I’d have to assume with something like WWE, Netflix is looking at subscriber retention more than viewing figures (to an extent, at least) - WWE might not do the same numbers as, say, Squid Game; but the people who follow it are likely to stay subscribed just to watch it, rather than cancel and re-subscribe as they might when it comes to some of their big hits.

And with that in mind, long-term storytelling would be an important thing alongside those TikTokable moments, to make sure people feel like they have to tune in.

But we’ll see I suppose, storytelling has certainly taken a dip in recent months.

[DavidB6937]

Moments are fine but they don't need to come at the expense of decent story telling. There's absolutely room for both and they should be of equal importance. 

[Mr_Danger]

41 minutes ago, RedTwoster said:

I’m hoping you’re wrong on this one - I’d have to assume with something like WWE, Netflix is looking at subscriber retention more than viewing figures (to an extent, at least) - WWE might not do the same numbers as, say, Squid Game; but the people who follow it are likely to stay subscribed just to watch it, rather than cancel and re-subscribe as they might when it comes to some of their big hits.

And with that in mind, long-term storytelling would be an important thing alongside those TikTokable moments, to make sure people feel like they have to tune in.

But we’ll see I suppose, storytelling has certainly taken a dip in recent months.

I’m hoping so too and maybe I’m being a bit knee jerk after a lacklustre Mania where for the second year in a row The Rock turned up and threw everything in to a tailspin. Netflix is in to short termism though and if they’re measuring WWE’s value to them in not only viewership but in engagements and trends then you can see how they’ll be pushing for the way forward to be full of celeb involvement and streamable moments.

[NeverYield]

This sort of thing is like when people ask barbell or dumbbell, leg press or squat, why not do both? 

WWE should still focus on more longer drawn out arcs, as well as one hit wonder social media hits, going down the route of one or the other would just be silly. 

[Lion_of_the_Midlands]

2 hours ago, Mr_Danger said:

. A 20 second reel with millions of impressions will overrule all.

This is the correct answer. As a whole we have been monetised 15 seconds at a time and that's all that counts any more. A long overarching storyline is 4 x 15 second clips put together. That's why there is so little wrestling on WWE shows. Cool moves are important because they monetise easier. Where AEW is failing is at this, because they have guys who can do cooler moves. They should be doing better. Throw in soundbites from the stars and that is the WWE wrestling model now. 

Edited April 23, 2025 by Lion_of_the_Midlands

[d-d-d-dAz]

1 minute ago, Lion_of_the_Midlands said:

This is the correct answer. As a whole we have been monetised 15 seconds at a time and that's all that counts any more. A long overarching storyline is 4 x 15 second clips put together. That's why there is so little wrestling on WWE shows. Cool moves are important because they monetise easier. Where AEW is failing is at this, because they have guys who can do cooler moves. They should be doing better. Throw in soundbites from the stars and that us WWE wrestling now. 

Singalong entrances that can be clipped up for social, too. 

[Mr_Danger]

21 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said:

Singalong entrances that can be clipped up for social, too. 

A true pioneer.

[LaGoosh]

I would like to see less long term storytelling personally. When done well obviously it's great, but too many fans (and promoters) equate long with good. Most wrestling stories should be relatively short in my opinion. Long term stories often lead to matches being held off for the sake of dragging stuff out. Just trim the fat and have a banging 1-3 month story. Not everything needs to run 6-12 (or more) months. Short stories combined with long term character development should be the sweet spot.