The Official UKFF RAW thread (part 2)...

[Pinc]

I wasn't imagining those boos for Punk was I?

Are we going to get Cena and Punk across a ring from eachother, and its Cena being cheered while Punk has to do the 'they paid their money they can boo me if they want' shtick?

[RedRooster]

23 minutes ago, air_raid said:

Aha, as Vince McMahon said to Y2J when Jericho wanted his Mania to be about pursuing a (company numbers) 10th ICT win.... "Nobody fucking cares about the Intercontinental title." No, we'll never get back to Warrior level. But that doesn't mean they can't try, does it?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with trying to do that - I just think it would be a better choice to not have him lose the belt. If he wins a World title having not lost the IC title, that's far more interesting than having him win the title after losing another. 

37 minutes ago, air_raid said:

Well, that's a different question entirely. As discussed at length during the Punk "will he/won't he" of the last six months, there's a huge argument that no one asset is a "draw" any more, usually referring to talent but certainly in the case of a title or title matches. The limited number of house shows they currently try to sell tickets for rarely have a World title match on them, never mind secondary titles. It's the ensemble, the show that draws a gate, rating, buyrate, Peacock subscription etc. But I'd argue keeping your titles looking valuable makes for a better wrestling show, rather than having someone discard them because they can't be bothered holding them any more or they only want to have to get one belt through customs.

It's a bit of both, surely? Perhaps people are unlikely to buy a ticket specifically to see Sami Zayn, but when he is involved in a red hot storyline with Roman Reigns and The Usos, they absolutely did. People buy tickets to watch storylines involving their favourite wrestlers play out; and the idea of an unbeaten Gunther heading into a World title match against someone like Cody Rhodes, CM Punk, Roman Reigns or even Seth Rollins is something that feels exciting - I'd want to see that. 

52 minutes ago, Hannibal Scorch said:

But Starks and Cage aren't at the top of the card. They were not AEW champ. They were not positioned to carry the company.  If you had have said Hanger or Omega or MJF I'd have said that was a fairer comparison.

I'm not sure what Christian Cage is other than at the top of the card - whole shows are built around him these days. But to play by the rules you're setting, I'll take Omega as an example. Since his return from injury, how many truly great matches has he had? Not good, not very good - great. And further to that, how many truly interesting feuds has he had in that time compared to Punk? It would be ludicrous for me to suggest that Omega's crap when the bell rings - that's obviously nonsense. But it's just as much of a stretch to make that claim about Punk on the logic that - in your opinion - only three of his AEW matches would qualify as being 'great'. 

[Mr Kennedy]

I thought Punk’s promo was fine. 
 

*runs*

[FUM]

Surprised nobody has mentioned the Wise Man references to keep us all excited.

[Lion_of_the_Midlands]

6 minutes ago, FUM said:

Surprised nobody has mentioned the Wise Man references to keep us all excited.

No one has acknowledged it. 

[air_raid]

44 minutes ago, RedRooster said:

It's a bit of both, surely? Perhaps people are unlikely to buy a ticket specifically to see Sami Zayn, but when he is involved in a red hot storyline with Roman Reigns and The Usos, they absolutely did. People buy tickets to watch storylines involving their favourite wrestlers play out; and the idea of an unbeaten Gunther heading into a World title match against someone like Cody Rhodes, CM Punk, Roman Reigns or even Seth Rollins is something that feels exciting - I'd want to see that.

That's more than fair, but personally I wouldn't particularly want the ending to the long and well-crafted story of "Just who is capable of taking that belt off Gunther?" to be "Nobody."

9 minutes ago, FUM said:

Surprised nobody has mentioned the Wise Man references to keep us all excited.

I genuinely thought it was a Scott Hall reference for a couple of seconds. Until I remembered that Pepsi Phil probably didn't drink from that particular well of wisdom.

[Bus Surfer]

It felt to me like a disingenuous face promo and a heel turn is imminent. 

Thanks for some wild reading on my lunch break! 

[tiger_rick]

1 hour ago, BomberPat said:

On IC Title chat, I did find it very funny at Survivor Series that they had The Miz claiming to have "brought credibility back to the Intercontinental Title" - a claim that wrestlers have been making for about twenty years

Shawn Michaels made that claim during his first run with the belt. So over 30 years ago. Such a horrible crutch and one I'm surprised anyone would have wanted highlighting given they booked it in the first place. 

[air_raid]

3 minutes ago, tiger_rick said:

Shawn Michaels made that claim during his first run with the belt.

That's a heel having a pop at strong babyface former champions (his enemies) Smithers and Bret, that we the fans saw through as a dickhead heel boasting without merit, surely? As opposed to the modern "this belt's been booked like shit but I've made it matter again" smarky bollocks.

[LaGoosh]

2 hours ago, Loki said:

So maybe they're re-running the NWO debut on Raw, where they came out and made out they were humble, and then proceeded to cause mayhem.  

If Punk tries to kill Seth Rollins by crashing into him with a tractor like Hogan did to The Rock then I'd be happy with that.

[tiger_rick]

Just now, air_raid said:

That's a heel having a pop at strong babyface former champions (his enemies) Smithers and Bret, that we the fans saw through as a dickhead heel boasting without merit, surely? As opposed to the modern "this belt's been booked like shit but I've made it matter again" smarky bollocks.

Yeah, it's more drenched in kayfabe back then. Just pointing out how long that's gone on. Funny that the likes of Dolph Ziggler wanted to restore the prestige of a belt Shawn said was shite 20 years earlier.

[Factotum]

Well that promo killed the aura a bit. Fucking hell. Would be something if he was doing 'Corporate Phil Triple H's mate' shtick, I could get behind that. This just seemed really off. Is he even that buzzed to be there? Dunno. Seems weird to say but I just don't think he fits that company.

Anyway, hopefully he'll turn it around. Personally I don't want him to do anything with Rollins who I genuinely can't stand at all.

[JLM]

I watched the whole show, some of it live and the rest this morning. I follow WWE still. Was watching Smackers full time when the Bloodline Angle was still good. Watch the PPVs and still watch or at least skim through Smackdown. Raw I find very difficult to do. I still listen to a podcast review of it most weeks, but the content of said reviews and the fact that it is unacceptably long for a wrestling television show mean I don’t watch it. 

Tried it this week to get the authentic “lapsed fan tuning in to see what Punk says” experience. 

I have often found Randy Orton to be very dull but I thought he sounded good in the opening promo. I liked him acknowledging that he can’t be too outraged about being taken out as he used to do that sort of thing all the time. Rhea’s a mega star of course. It’s been a joy to watch her through the whole NXT run to where she is now. 

Tag team turmoil match went on for about five years. Indus Sher remain the absolute shits. The Creed Brothers are very impressive and this was an effective showcase for them, though it went far too long and they nearly ended Vinci with that finish. The first time they hit it I immediately thought “but what if he lands on the guy by mistake?” then he did. I have a soft spot for DIY too so nice to see them not get completely washed,  but this was very long and very cold for long stretches. Bizarre use of the commercial-free first hour to fill a lot of it with this. 

I am not familiar with Jelly Roll. R Truth can be hilarious at times but this was bad. Maybe if I was more familiar with the works of Mr. Roll. Guess we’ll never know. 
 

Cody’s promo was fine. No beef with Punk, entering the rumble, fans eating out of the palm of his hand throughout. They sing Seth’s song but they LOVE Cody. I thought specifically naming and thanking all of his team mates at War Games was a lovely detail and very on brand for him. Nakamura’s pre taped promos in Japanese are cool as fuck. They’re one of the RAW things I have been checking out and I’m a big fan. 
 

Ivar and Reed was satisfyingly meaty. Fan of both of these guys and was particularly aggrieved when Reed was let go the first time. Fans ice cold at the start but they dragged them into it and did some pretty whacky stuff both during and after the match. It’s a shame nobody in the crowd cared much about either of them as the performances deserved better. They’ve done so much damage to the Vikings’ credibility though, so it’s not surprising that the multiple attempted resets haven’t worked. 

Zoey Stark looked pretty good towards the end of the old black and gold NXT. Still seems uncomfortable whenever she has to talk but she’s impressive in-ring. Groaned when the backstage segment made it clear she was going to be fed to Nia Jax and put back in her place after her title challenge. Nia is still dreadful of course. Not remotely convincing on the mic. She has dropped some weight and is a bit more mobile in the ring but still not good and I don’t like her being on my TV. 
 

Rollins promo was a Rollins promo. Laughed when he said he’d made his consolation belt the most important title in the industry. Like I know he HAS to say that but it’s still funny. I’m liking bitter and grumpy Drew. He sounded good, I liked the headbutt. Also thought his chat with Sammy backstage was effective too, where he wasn’t being a full heel. He’s not decided he’s evil now, he’s not joining Judgment Day, he’s just trying whatever it takes to get where he wants to be and is increasingly frustrated that it isn’t working. Good stuff. 
 

Women’s tag title match was filler. Chelsea Green always makes the most of her often limited screen time. I’m a fan of Piper Niven also so was nice to see her. 
 

Loved Gunther’s short backstage chat with Miz. “You proved last night you do belong in this ring… just not with me” With the most condescending little grin on his face. One step away from giving him a little pat on the head. I bloody love Gunther. 

Randy and Dom was fine. Everyone hates Dom, everyone loves Randy. The main event was always going to be the Punk promo anyway. 
 

Then we got to Punk’s promo. I am glad I didn’t try to sit through the whole thing live to get to it I must say. As others have said it was so corny that I have to assume that’s to give Rollins some ammo to fire back with. Punk always brings up the importance of his connection with the fans and that they never forget him when he’s away etc. but saying he’s “home” was not very CM Punk-y.  And yeah, saying he’s not here to make friends/he’s here to make money did not tie in with what he’d just said at all. I’m glad he didn’t go all insider references with it, but it felt so insincere that I do have to wonder if it was intentional. 
 

I still struggle to fathom how someone could sit through the full RAW on TV with commercial breaks. There was a lot of filler. The middle and lower card feels like a bit of a wasteland. The fans were there to see the big stars and it took a loooot of work to rope them into these matches. The WWE comedy still misses way more often than it hits for me, and with RAW having to fill three hours they seem to put more of it in here than they do on Smackdown. 
 

Some individual bits were good, it was an OK watch on skim-watch format, but I won’t be watching an entire episode again any time soon. 

Edited November 28, 2023 by JLM

[The Gaffer]

Oh yeah with all the Punk hoopla I almost forgot Rollins saying "I do have...a title match next week on Raw" to absolute crickets. 

[BomberPat]

22 minutes ago, JLM said:

I still struggle to fathom how someone could sit through the full RAW on TV with commercial breaks. There was a lot of filler. The middle and lower card feels like a bit of a wasteland. The fans were there to see the big stars and it took a loooot of work to rope them into these matches. The WWE comedy still misses way more often than it hits for me, and with RAW having to fill three hours they seem to put more of it in here than they do on Smackdown. 

When I was in the US last year, I found that watching WWE telly is a lot more bearable, even with all the ad breaks, when it's not on in the middle of the night, and life is going on as normal around it. I can definitely see how it's become habit viewing for a lot of the audience.

Your point about fans wanting to see the big stars is really key, though - if people were tuning in to RAW for the first time in a while (or maybe even ever) because they liked what they saw at Survivor Series, they were in for a rough time of it considering the only people who competed at Survivor Series who also wrestled on RAW were Randy Orton, Dominik Mysterio, and Zoey Stark, and CM Punk didn't rock up until less than ten minutes before the end. Maybe a bit disingenuous, as you still got your Codys and your Seths and your Rhea Ripleys, but the card looks piss-poor on paper.