HOSTAGE WATCH: WWE Stranded In Saudi

[David]

26 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

I also wouldn't read too much into Meltzer touching it and mainstream media not - wrestling is alien to the majority of journalists, and even stories with potentially huge ramifications won't get picked up. Imagine if this scenario were taking place with, for example, the Man City squad, or the England cricket team, or the cast of the next Bond movie. Even at the point we're at where it's nothing but speculation and gossip, it would have been making headlines - the reason it's not is because it's wrestling, not because there's no story.

Normally I'd agree, but we're talking about Trump's America here. He's currently sending troops to Saudi along with military hardware, and he's getting flak for that from certain sections of the media. This is a regime that's still supposedly locking up dissidents according to some media outlets.

If the Saudi's were acting up the media would be all over it, simply for the reason that they could then say that Trump is backing a regime who detained (albeit temporarily) US citizens, making them feel unsafe and so on. That none of them have makes me think it's all bullshit.

Edited November 4, 2019 by David

[The Gaffer]

31 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

The dullest of answers, but the truth likely lies somewhere in the middle.

I said earlier that I felt it was technical issues, but technical issues wouldn't have resulted in wrestlers being told they had to return to their hotel and not being allowed to leave. I would assume that wrestlers and crew used to travelling on WWE's insane schedule, some of them having wrestled for decades, would have at least an idea of what technical issues look like, and what standard procedure is in that instance.

That said, one of the airlines involved (Air Atlas) did issue a statement about the initial flight, that backs up the technical issues story, so Occam's Razor explanation would suggest that's what happened. 

 

It's everything after that which becomes murky. Talent not permitted to leave the hotel. WWE's statement that WWE superstars "chartered their own flight", which clearly wasn't the case, judging from social media posts by multiple members of WWE talent and crew.

Hugo Savinovich said that Vince got into an altercation with the Saudis over money, and delayed the broadcast of Crown Jewel in Saudi Arabia. I can't see any reason for Hugo to bullshit people, and he's well-connected, though apparently yesterday Hugo was told by someone in WWE that this was "just hearsay". In any event - the show did air late in Saudi Arabia, and there have been question marks around WWE's last quarterly earnings report in relation to Saudi money.

 

I don't think seasoned travelers are posting things like "never again", asking for fans' prayers, or posting passive aggressive comments like Luke Harper (and those commenting on his IG post) have been, for a simple mechanical issue. These are people who travel constantly, and have likely put up with every kind of travel complaint imaginable - I fly short haul pretty often, though nothing like a WWE schedule, and have put up with delays, cancellations, diversions and everything else, so can only assume that people travelling far more often than me have seen their fair share. It's going to take more than a mechanical fault and a delayed flight to garner the kind of reactions we're seeing.

 

Everything adds up to it being a much fishier story than the WWE version of events. I don't think it's anything as dramatic as a hostage situation, but it feels like a quid pro quo situation where someone wasn't getting enough quid for their quo. Obstruction, or being willfully unhelpful, rather than actively holding people against their will. Passive rather than active.

 

I also wouldn't read too much into Meltzer touching it and mainstream media not - wrestling is alien to the majority of journalists, and even stories with potentially huge ramifications won't get picked up. Imagine if this scenario were taking place with, for example, the Man City squad, or the England cricket team, or the cast of the next Bond movie. Even at the point we're at where it's nothing but speculation and gossip, it would have been making headlines - the reason it's not is because it's wrestling, not because there's no story.

Nailed it. 

It's plausible that Vince made a power play and the Saudis made one back by grounding them for a bit. 

I'm still unsure why some people are continuing on as if the rest of us think WWE wrestlers were kept in cages somewhere under some sandy dune. I've not seen anyone seriously level that explanation, anywhere. But by the same token there's reasonable doubt that there was a bit of a potentially consequential diplomatic fracas here with the production of the event. 

As for the rest of the media not picking up on it, hey ho. It took decades to get a mainstream expose the quality of John Oliver. This is still primarily a potential intrigue with the production of a wrestling event and the finances involved. The rest of the world doesn't give a fuck. Just us lot. 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Gay as FOOK

[BomberPat]

I still think wrestling is completely off the radar for most people who would be in the position to make that argument, though.

Any time any major news source has made any reference to Trump's connections to WWE, it's never been more than "lol, he did the fake fighting", and wrestling as a byword for low culture. If you wanted to do a deep dive into Trump's connections to the McMahons, there's likely far juicier stuff to find in there - most commenting on Trump's work with WWE barely even referenced that Linda got a cabinet position, let alone that, in spite of how much time he spends on Twitter, Trump only actually follows 47 people - once you remove his businesses, members of his family, members of his cabinet, and FOX News personalities, you're left with - The Drudge Report (right wing news aggregator), Diamond and Silk (right wing pro-Trump bloggers/podcasters), Mark Burnett (producer of The Apprentice), Geraldo Rivera, Gary Player, Piers Morgan and Vince McMahon.
So seven accounts, only four or five of whom aren't specifically presenting themselves as news sources, one of them being Vince. The timing of Vince relaunching the XFL, off the back of Donald Trump's attacks on the NFL, are extremely suspicious, as are Vince's political donations and machinations over the years.
Linda is the chair of America First Action, a significant SuperPAC that spends tens of millions attacking Democrat candidates, and worked at the behest of Giuliani to dig up dirt on Trump's political opponents around the Ukraine deal. 

That's all surface level stuff - but knowing the relationship between Vince and Trump goes back decades, and knowing that they've both been tied up with all manner of shady schemes, any legitimate journalist worth their salt would have a field day digging into it all. But, even with the President of the United States involved, it's Just Wrestling, so no political editor is going to put up the cash for that story. 

Even as a Trump attack piece, this is Just Wrestling. I know people who, when told that the Ultimate Warrior had died within days of appearing at Wrestlemania, replied, "yeah, it's all scripted, isn't it". If this so much as troubled the headlines, you'd get comments saying, "it's all fake, who cares?". There's no interest. But, again, imagine that 150+ people tied to any other multi-million dollar, televised, entertainment franchise were in this position - any sports team, any TV crew, any movie stars, it would be headline news anywhere. Especially if the person managing it all was a documented close personal friend of Donald Trump! But it's Just Wrestling. Even if the story were just as simple as "delay for 18+ hours due to mechanical issues, stranded in Saudi Arabia", if it were the cast of Game of Thrones or whatever people watch these days, it would make headlines even without any suggestion of wrongdoing. But it won't, because it's Just Wrestling. So we're left with Meltzer being the only person talking about it, and being woefully ill-equipped to do so.

[tiger_rick]

I don't completely buy that the media would ignore it becuase it's just wrestling. Most media is click driven these days. They'll report anything on wrestling because a lot of people will click it. The difference here is that WWE have successfully capped the story. Had any wrestler tweeted it clearly, it would have been everywhere. But no-one is going looking for the story bar a couple of the usual suspects and no big outlet is referring to them.

I don't think it's a wrestling only thing either. So much of the "news" these days is reporting stuff they've been handed by social media or PR. no wonder someone like Trump is able to con (some) people into thinking the media is bent. It's a dying art.

[David]

11 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

Even as a Trump attack piece, this is Just Wrestling. I know people who, when told that the Ultimate Warrior had died within days of appearing at Wrestlemania, replied, "yeah, it's all scripted, isn't it". If this so much as troubled the headlines, you'd get comments saying, "it's all fake, who cares?". There's no interest. But, again, imagine that 150+ people tied to any other multi-million dollar, televised, entertainment franchise were in this position - any sports team, any TV crew, any movie stars, it would be headline news anywhere. Especially if the person managing it all was a documented close personal friend of Donald Trump! But it's Just Wrestling. Even if the story were just as simple as "delay for 18+ hours due to mechanical issues, stranded in Saudi Arabia", if it were the cast of Game of Thrones or whatever people watch these days, it would make headlines even without any suggestion of wrongdoing. But it won't, because it's Just Wrestling. So we're left with Meltzer being the only person talking about it, and being woefully ill-equipped to do so.

I saw coverage here in Canada. It was reported as WWE wrestlers being delayed in Saudi due to an issue with their aircraft. It was also covered on Forbes. I think you kind of underplay the way WWE is viewed in North America to a certain extent. It's considered pretty mainstream here. I've seen WWE guys on various legit sports talk shows, it occupies primetime TV on a Monday night at 9pm eastern. Only recently I read an article in a mainstream Canadian outlet talking about the women's match that took place in bodysuits, as part of a larger piece about Saudi and how they're trying to rehabilitate their image and so on. 

The Houston Chronicle sports section covered Bruce Pritchard being announced as Executive Director of Smackdown. 

I know it's different in the UK to a certain extent, in part because the stink of "Big Daddy" is still attached to the word "wrestling," but the US and Canada seems different. They buy into the entertainment aspect of it, and it's less of a joke these days. It's certainly not a case of "just wrestling." Not in my experience, anyway.

[BomberPat]

I get your point, but they're fluff pieces. Rick is probably closer to the truth in that they're news broadcasts picking up a press release, and that's very different to actual journalism. There's no one doing deep dives into the machinations behind wrestling, just repeating the stuff they're given to fill five minutes of TV time. There's no one actually looking into this kind of thing.

 

Reddit, so pinch of salt, but here's something that somewhat rings true;

 

Edited November 4, 2019 by BomberPat

[David]

Yeah, but maybe that's because there really is nothing to look into? If you're a journalist and you see a story that WWE talent have been delayed in Saudi after an event due to aircraft issues, along with an apology and statement by the actual airline involved, what exactly are you looking to dig into? It's a non-story. This isn't a movie where there's a rogue reporter who decides to dig into a story that seems legit on the surface only to find espionage and and Dave Meltzer lurking in the shadows of an underground parking lot with a brown envelope full of secret info.

All that some people are going on is Twitter, some disgruntled WWE talent, and sites like Reddit. 

Honestly, with the current political climate and the added anger that Trump is backing a nation like Saudi while seemingly waltzing into a war with Iran, if there was a slight whiff that Saudi had pulled a stunt involving holding US citizens (wrestlers or otherwise) against their will for any period of time, be it just putting them back in their hotel or whatever, but basically refusing them permission to leave the country, there'd be coverage of it.

This is Trump we're talking about, and Iran, and Saudi Arabia. If there was something amiss I don't think "it's just wrestling" would be a factor. The media over here are aware of what happened. It's not as though they heard about it and didn't report it because it's just wrestling, they reported it. 

As much as some of us will want to believe that it's all dodgy and weird like much of the wrestling world, I don't think this one is. 

[The King Of Swing]

To be fair any random can make any claim they want on Reddit. Even though that does seem somewhat believable.

Just like anyone can nick Reddit posts and post them here like it's their own original thoughts.

[ReturnOfTheMack]

1 hour ago, Grecian said:

Plus if the plane got sorted out quickly, they don't want to hold up a departure because Zack Ryder has gone on a day trip somewhere. 

I wouldn't bet on that...

[BomberPat]

23 minutes ago, The King Of Swing said:

To be fair any random can make any claim they want on Reddit. Even though that does seem somewhat believable.

Hence my pinch of salt caveat - I wouldn't put too much stock in it, and it's certainly not an explanation of what happened here, but it's a talking point if there's a precedent for Saudi Arabia doing business in this manner. 

Yes, there's anger that Trump is backing Saudi Arabia, but so much of that is based on Trump's "Oops, I said the quiet part loud and the loud part quiet" approach to politics. The US has always mollycoddled Saudi Arabia, and Saudi Arabia has always got away with murder, both literally and figuratively, for as long as the western powers have kept them propped up and turned a blind eye to insane levels of corruption.

 

I don't think it's a non-story at all. Even if the story were just mechanical issues and we took it all at face value, if this were something higher on the cultural pecking order than wrestling, it would be headline news. I 100% believe that. The fact that it hasn't troubled the headlines at all, even on that level, is because it's Just Wrestling. That there's no impetus for anyone to look further into it despite plenty of reasons to question the legitimacy of the official account is absolutely because it's Just Wrestling. It's not about espionage and brown envelopes, it's about there being in excess of 200 WWE employees and "independent contractors" and their families that any journalist could speak to about this. There's no shortage of first-hand accounts potentially out there. From Meltzer's reporting, people who spoke to him believed there was something untoward going on. That's not to say there was something, but people directly involved certainly believed there was.

Out of interest, I searched the "News" section of Google to see who has picked up this story. The search term I used was "WWE Saudi Arabia". There was, as you say, an article from Forbes - but from a "Forbes contributor", which is effectively unvetted, unpaid, bloggers used to drive SEO numbers, not actual Forbes writers. Next we have Bleacher Report, in their "WWE" section. Every other story is from dedicated wrestling "news" websites, gossip sites and news aggregators. With the exception of this, from The Sun's sports page - https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/10275665/wrestlers-wwe-statement-saudi-arabia-flight-delays-smackdown/. Again, though, this is really just the same information any of us could have garnered from Tweets.

 

So that's basically zero coverage from any mainstream news source, outside of The Sun's website (I don't know if it made the paper). You might believe that's because it's a "non-story", and you might be right, but I think it's far more likely that no one's touched it because it's just a wrestling story. Only people already paying attention to wrestling have encountered it.

 

In the interest of balance, AJ Styles more or less confirmed the official account on a live stream;

Quote

• There was an unspecified issue with the plane and they were originally not allowed to board. Something with paperwork.

• They had called for a refueling service, but the servicemen, they were told, had gone home for the evening.

• By the time this was sorted out, the pilots were no longer cleared to fly because their shift had timed out. They were then asked to find a hotel and wait for the next flight.

• There were no guns or anything crazy like a hostage situation. His wife called worried about the rumors.

• Once the finally got on the (second) flight home, one of the pilots sat with them in the cabin and explained there was some kind of service issue.

• He’s not sure what happened with Vince and the Royal Prince, and it’s not his job to speculate.

• Just wants to go to work and do the best job he can, and mentions there are a lot of good people at WWE, and are all on the same team.

• Missed his son’s wrestling match and was very angry about that, but is just happy to be home. Here is the link:

https://mixer.com/STYLESCLASH

The conspiracy-minded among us may wish to point out that this account came out after Meltzer had Tweeted about WWE actively trying to encourage wrestlers to record videos confirming that it was a mechanical issue, which is clearly not suspicious at all, and couldn't possibly have led to AJ Styles' "I just want to do my best, and we're all a happy family" tone here.

I would also add that, particularly with the comments of the Reddit post on how Saudi Arabia does business in mind, that AJ Styles and others were told there were issues with paperwork doesn't necessarily mean there were issues with paperwork, if you get my drift. 

Edited November 4, 2019 by BomberPat

[The King Of Swing]

Oh don't get me wrong I find it very believable that the plane suddenly developed issues and that there was a "problem" with paperwork could be a thinly veiled warning/threat.

Don't have to take hostages to fuck with WWE. Just screwing with their schedule is also a massive ball ache even if they managed to wing it this time.

If it does turn out to be nothing though then surely Meltzer has completely flushed what actual credibility he has? This goes well beyond a "plans change" goof.

[Tommy!]

1 hour ago, Grecian said:

Plus if the plane got sorted out quickly, they don't want to hold up a departure because Zack Ryder has gone on a day trip somewhere. 

A series of promos over the next six weeks of Ryder backpacking around the middle East because no one noticed he wasn't on the plane might be fun.

[BomberPat]

5 minutes ago, The King Of Swing said:

If it does turn out to be nothing though then surely Meltzer has completely flushed what actual credibility he has? This goes well beyond a "plans change" goof.

Meltzer's line is that everyone he's spoken to that's involved with WWE has told him a consistent version of events that differs from what WWE are saying officially. 

I'm not sure we'll find out the truth any time soon, but this is going to be massive shoot interview fodder in the years to come.

[Angle_fan]

What baffles me is that it must have been the Saudi's who originally contacted WWE because they wanted them over there for shows. Then they decided not to pay for the shows afterwards? So surely It's Saudi Arabia in the wrong. 

Sounds like something you'd hear happen in Israel. 

[David]

21 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

I don't think it's a non-story at all. Even if the story were just mechanical issues and we took it all at face value, if this were something higher on the cultural pecking order than wrestling, it would be headline news. I 100% believe that.

I don't. Regardless of it being WWE staff, an NBA basketball team, someone from Game of Thrones or whatever, them being delayed due to mechanical issues with their aircraft would still be pretty much a non-story. It would be mentioned in passing, more likely in the case of the NBA example due to it potentially fucking with scheduling and suchlike, but it's not headline news at all.

The narrative would most likely be "don't fly out there to play a game. It's not worth the potential upheaval to scheduling if this kind of thing goes on," but then I've also heard the same argument being made about NHL games being played in Sweden during the season.

But yeah, it's a non-story no matter who it is. Maybe if it's Trump himself there's a bit more attention paid to it, but not much.

Personally, I think you're hanging too much on this "wrestling being so far down the social totem that no one gives a shit" angle. It's not true, not in North America. The WWE gets the respect (and the shit) it deserves as I mentioned in the post above. The UK may be different.

21 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

The fact that it hasn't troubled the headlines at all, even on that level, is because it's Just Wrestling. That there's no impetus for anyone to look further into it despite plenty of reasons to question the legitimacy of the official account is absolutely because it's Just Wrestling. It's not about espionage and brown envelopes, it's about there being in excess of 200 WWE employees and "independent contractors" and their families that any journalist could speak to about this. There's no shortage of first-hand accounts potentially out there.

It's really not, it's because outside of some Tweets, some Reddit posts, and guys like Meltzer there is absolutely zero evidence of anything sinister going on. Any journalist worth his or her salt who ran something like that would get laughed out of the building. In fact, I doubt their editor would even give it the time of day. And that isn't because "it's just wrestling," it's because there's no basis for it.

The company have confirmed what happened, the airline have even confirmed what happened. There's no story, unless you're reaching for it. And that's fine for the hacks who write for wrestling sites or who post on forums, Reddit and Twitter, but if you're a legit journalist you can't go on that kind of stuff. 

21 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

Out of interest, I searched the "News" section of Google to see who has picked up this story. The search term I used was "WWE Saudi Arabia". There was, as you say, an article from Forbes - but from a "Forbes contributor", which is effectively unvetted, unpaid, bloggers used to drive SEO numbers, not actual Forbes writers.

I work with Forbes contributors. They are very much vetted and paid. To write for Forbes as a contributor takes a shitload of credibility in most cases, and is considered something of a holy grail among freelance writers and journalists. There are well-known CEO's and tech industry leaders who write regularly for Forbes, and they're all paid.

I think, in all honesty, that like most conspiracy theories, those who believe in there being sinister motives behind this story aren't going to ever believe the facts as reported by the mainstream media. As you say, even if they were told there was paperwork and mechanical issues, was there really those issues? Or were they being misled?

7 minutes ago, The King Of Swing said:

If it does turn out to be nothing though then surely Meltzer has completely flushed what actual credibility he has? This goes well beyond a "plans change" goof.

It won't make any difference to him really. He'll just claim that he heard what he heard and that those who contradict him are either toeing the company line or not "in the know" to the extent he is. It's the same rulebook we see other conspiracy theory reporters use. "The establishment" has just covered it all up.

And his fans will lap that shit up.

I actually think the bigger issue for WWE here isn't that the Saudi's are now Vince's sworn enemies because he pulled the plug on their telly broadcast, but that morale among talent seems like it's at an all-time low. 

Edited November 4, 2019 by David