Paid Members stumobir Posted July 30, 2022 Paid Members Share Posted July 30, 2022 10 minutes ago, Uncle Zeb said: If Labour had received the most non-Tory votes in my constituency last election then I'd absolutely be voting for them in the next one, even if I had to hold my nose while doing so. I'm not going to let perfect be the enemy of better, and hold the country to ransom under Tory rule while insisting any replacement be everything I desire. Times are too desperate for too many for me to hold out for ideological purity right now. Your mileage may very. Tell that to the Blairites that scuppered Labour’s best chance of installing a proper socialist government in 2017. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merzbow Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Uncle Zeb said: If Labour had received lhe most non-Tory votes in my constituency last election then I'd absolutely be voting for them in the next one, even if I had to hold my nose while doing so. I'm not going to let perfect be the enemy of better, and hold the country to ransom under Tory rule while insisting any replacement be everything I desire. Times are too desperate for too many for me to hold out for ideological purity right now. Your mileage may very. Labour currently stands for nothing I believe in, it's not about any kind of purity when the party actively doesn't want me. There are already moves in place to deselect Zarah Sultana, just watch. Edited July 30, 2022 by Merzbow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 9 minutes ago, Merzbow said: the party actively doesn't want me. Oh no! Sorry, I'll leave the facetiousness there. I don't want to vilify anyone for wanting a better opposition to what ought to be an open goal at present. I just feel there are bigger and more immediate problems facing the country than any current misgivings I may have about the government's largest and therefore most likely contender. I'll still be voting Lib Dem though, as they're in a stronger position round here than Labour. And yes, that would be true in other places if everyone just decided to vote Lib Dem regardless, but it's not a gamble I'd be comfortable making right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 34 minutes ago, Uncle Zeb said: I just feel there are bigger and more immediate problems facing the country than any current misgivings I may have about the government's largest and therefore most likely contender. I get that, I really do. For me it’s about compromise, which is what a lot of politics is all about. The trouble is where do you draw the line on that compromise? For me, that line is in the distance now and unless Labours manifesto is radically different to what they are projecting currently, I won’t be voting for them. Using the “Public transport” analogy, if that bus isn’t going even in the same direction where I want to go, I’m not getting that bus.  I think a Labour government would be better than the current one, but in the same way having half your leg amputated is better than having your whole leg amputated. If Labour are going to be as poor as I suspect they will, I can’t moan if I voted for it because I knew what I was voting for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted July 30, 2022 Paid Members Share Posted July 30, 2022 (edited) The thing is, where's the tipping point? When Labour have no policies that appeal to me, actively boot people who largely share my politics out of the party, and offer no meaningful difference to the tories in terms of policy platform, why should we be expected to vote for them just because they're not the Tories? Being "not the Tories" ceases to be a selling point when there's little to differentiate one party from another. At the last local elections, I reached the point where I couldn't even bring myself to hold my nose and vote Labour any more, because they have nothing to offer, and actively work to discourage people like me from supporting them. As @stumobir said, isn't it funny how these calls for unity and backing Labour no matter what only ever come at the expense of the Left? The right wing of the party certainly didn't rally behind the party under Corbyn because "any Labour government is better than the Tories", they actively worked to undermine their own leadership, and membership, at every turn. Long-standing, active members and MPs getting kicked out for being socialists and supporting strike action (in the Labour Party! Perish the thought!) isn't happening in the spirit of unity and the "broad church". The Left have put up with this shit for decades, yet it's only when they complain that we hear about "ideological purity" - what is Starmer ridding the party of socialists if not a project of ideological purity? Edited July 30, 2022 by BomberPat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 If all it came down to were Conservative policies that were indistinguishable from Labour's proposals, then I'd understand the Spider-Man pointing memes. But the last few years have been made intolerably worse by those in government being lethally incompetent crooks, on a level that in my view no viable alternative would remotely compare. If someone can look at a party that stood behind Johnson and his coven of cretins for so long and truly believe they're the same as Starmer's lot, whatever his faults, then I just can't relate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 22 minutes ago, Uncle Zeb said: If someone can look at a party that stood behind Johnson and his coven of cretins for so long and truly believe they're the same as Starmer's lot, whatever his faults, then I just can't relate. This is something the tories seem to be good at, reboots. It’s like a perception to some that they haven’t been in power for 12 years, There was a coalition, then Cameron, then May, then Johnson. Next there will be Truss or Sunak. It’s as if it’s some Doctor Who or Ben Mitchell regeneration. Truss will spend the first year going on about they aren’t the Johnson years, this is different and sensible. It doesn’t matter if they all supported him, this is different.  I don’t think anyone, at least here, is saying they’re the same as Starmers lot, they’re saying they also find Starmer to be untrustworthy, shit, and not worth their vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted July 30, 2022 Paid Members Share Posted July 30, 2022 37 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said: This is something the tories seem to be good at, reboots. It’s like a perception to some that they haven’t been in power for 12 years, There was a coalition, then Cameron, then May, then Johnson. Next there will be Truss or Sunak. It’s as if it’s some Doctor Who or Ben Mitchell regeneration. Truss will spend the first year going on about they aren’t the Johnson years, this is different and sensible. It doesn’t matter if they all supported him, this is different.  I don’t think anyone, at least here, is saying they’re the same as Starmers lot, they’re saying they also find Starmer to be untrustworthy, shit, and not worth their vote. Nah, they're not good at it - the press and the public do it for them on a regular basis. We see it right in front of us, before our very eyes now. All the Tories have ever needed to do is change leaders, and the electorate treat them as different governments. But Labour, whether it's fronted by Blair, Corbyn, or Starmer, are still "the party that bankrupted the country" and "the party of the Winter of Discontent" at the same time. Never lose sight of the fact that this country is majority right-wing, and they will always forgive ten times worse in the Tories what they will not forgive at all in Labour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 Fair point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Teedy Kay Posted July 30, 2022 Paid Members Share Posted July 30, 2022 It's a difficult balancing act that Labour have to play now. You go the Socialist route and you're portrayed as the evil that almost installed Comrade Corbyn and turned us into Venezuela. Proved by Johnson continually lambasting the most centrist of centrists in Starmer for being behind Corbyn. You play the centrist route, the one that will more than likely get you in Govt, and you're turning your back on what the party stands for. What Labour need is a left leaning Blairite with a northern accent and a dose of charisma. So when are the party just going to admit it, and pull the trigger on Andy Burnham?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members PunkStep Posted July 31, 2022 Paid Members Share Posted July 31, 2022 Christ, look at this from Starmer: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62369125 I mean, we knew this anyway but the way he's so candid and unapologetic about ditching one of the pillars of the party 'for votes' is shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Hannibal Scorch Posted July 31, 2022 Paid Members Share Posted July 31, 2022 4 minutes ago, PunkStep said: Christ, look at this from Starmer: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62369125 I mean, we knew this anyway but the way he's so candid and unapologetic about ditching one of the pillars of the party 'for votes' is shit. And yet if he stood by it, we’d be guaranteed another 5 years of Tory rule. This where you have to decide whether to appear to hardcore Labour voters or the general populous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBacon Posted July 31, 2022 Share Posted July 31, 2022 22 minutes ago, PunkStep said: Christ, look at this from Starmer: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62369125 I mean, we knew this anyway but the way he's so candid and unapologetic about ditching one of the pillars of the party 'for votes' is shit. Far from wanting to defend him, but I think that is slightly out of context or being misread. I don't think he's saying they should stop being a party of protest, but one that shouldn't only be seen as always protesting and doing fuck all, if they want to be taken seriously. I think he's a cunt, but I do think it's important to have balance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Danger Posted July 31, 2022 Share Posted July 31, 2022 22 minutes ago, Hannibal Scorch said: And yet if he stood by it, we’d be guaranteed another 5 years of Tory rule. This where you have to decide whether to appear to hardcore Labour voters or the general populous. Why call themselves the Labour Party then? Why not just fuck off with Chuka and co and go and serve their own best interests elsewhere. If they don’t represent the workers then they don’t represent the Labour Party. Luckily this isn’t football and you don’t have to blindly follow your allegiance in spite of your beliefs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Hannibal Scorch Posted July 31, 2022 Paid Members Share Posted July 31, 2022 15 minutes ago, SuperBacon said: Far from wanting to defend him, but I think that is slightly out of context or being misread. I don't think he's saying they should stop being a party of protest, but one that shouldn't only be seen as always protesting and doing fuck all, if they want to be taken seriously. I think he's a cunt, but I do think it's important to have balance. You only have to remember the Tory response to the first train strike which was “And this is what you’d get with a Labour government” ignoring the point it was happening under their own but putting the blame solely at their feet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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