Impact wrestling thread - It's a Don West tribute thread now!

[d-d-d-dAz]

I don't know, really.

 

It's hard to be objective looking back with rose-tinted WWE spectacles on, but I just about remember when Ambrose and Rollins signed most people were like 'wait, what? That's fucking ridiculous.' And when Punk signed people were sure it was a big rib, and he'd end up playing a silly gimmick of some sort.

 

No one looked at most of those guys and thought 'nailed on stars' and had they signed for TNA, they definitely wouldn't be stars now.

[Undefeated Steak]

I don't know, really.

 

It's hard to be objective looking back with rose-tinted WWE spectacles on, but I just about remember when Ambrose and Rollins signed most people were like 'wait, what? That's fucking ridiculous.' And when Punk signed people were sure it was a big rib, and he'd end up playing a silly gimmick of some sort.

 

No one looked at most of those guys and thought 'nailed on stars' and had they signed for TNA, they definitely wouldn't be stars now.

 

Yeah, fair point. Either way, I think what's even more telling is TNA having had Hogan, Sting, Angle, Jeff Hardy, Flair and others through their doors and still managed to turn out the way they have.

[air_raid]

For every guy that had some indy buzz or proven themselves something special that TNA didn't manage to sign, you can point out that they went as far as could be reasonably expected with guys they did sign - The Wolves were made into their top team and perennial champions, Joe got his run with Angle and won their World title title, Austin Aries realistically over-achieved by winning the World title and headlining a Bound For Glory with Jeff Hardy. I don't know how much "access" you can claim with a lot of those names, Benno, but with a lot of them "did not sign them" could be attributed to many reasons (many of which will lay with the choices of the talent, not with TNA) and could just as easily be considered "hard luck, TNA" rather than assuming they were incompetent and didn't spot the potential in any of them.

 

As for the guys they actually had use of - Punk left because of the "us and them" ultimatum in regards to ROH and the Feinstein scandal, regardless of whether they saw the potential in him. Okada might as well be Captain Hindsight's sidekick because he was legitimately nothing special until his frankly astonishing match with Tana for the big belt, the booking of him to win being the biggest upset in my eyes since Kid pinning Razor on a live Raw. That match and result transformed Okada from "who?" to a star in one match due to the huge balls of New Japan to take that chance on him, and nobody on the planet outside of New Japan's booking team had any idea that he could be that level of huge, so let's not be too harsh on TNA in that respect.

 

As for Styles..... what more could they have done with him?? There is ZERO "not knowing what they could have" with A.J. Styles. They put the belt on him.... what, 5 times? They made him THEIR star, virtually their Sting, even calling him "Mr TNA" on television, and lost him only when their pursestrings had to be tightened and they could no longer afford to pay him what he thought he was worth.

 

They had access to Tanahashi too, who had been IWGP Champion at least once at the time, and didn't do anything worthwhile with him

 

If we're thinking about the run I'm thinking of, in the briefest of windows they had to book Tana, they put him on a PPV with Styles. What else could they have done with him? They only had a couple of days. It's not like they had a New Japan invasion storyline that ran for six months and Tana was doing jobs for Red or Shark Boy.

[Carbomb]

 

Yeah, but a lot of those guys at that point were nowhere near as good as they currently are, and probably never would've been before they got to WWE. I never rated Punk, Steen/Owens, Generico/Zayn, Black/Rollins or Moxley/Ambrose until they'd been through developmental.

When they had Okada, he was still in the early stages of his career. It was only after he left that he started on his rise to the main event. I don't think TNA could've developed him, or any of the other guys above.

 

They saw the potential in Styles, Joe and the others, the wrestlers that came through just before the Steens, Blacks and Genericos. I think they'd lost interest in pushing new stars by the time they started coming through though and were more focused on using ex-WWE guys.

 

A number of people outside TNA, and no doubt in it too, had seen the potential in Punk, Steen, Generico and Black before they signed with WWE. Which makes it all the worse that they passed on the chance to sign them up.

 

FWIW, I don't doubt that WWE have helped them improve greatly since they joined, but to defend TNA by saying the wrestlers weren't that good when they had the chance to sign them is a bit of a stretch.

I see why you thought I was defending TNA, so I should clarify: it's more that I don't think TNA have or have ever really had the framework or expertise to have developed those talents from their raw bases, nor have they ever demonstrated that they could have developed them into stars - basically, I don't think they would've known what to do with these guys even when they had access to them. AJ's done well, but I'd be more inclined to attribute that to his wide range of experiences working across the world than anything TNA did in particular. He's the only TNA star to have come across to WWE and slotted into the main roster to some decent fanfare, and even then I'd put it down to his NJPW success. Edited January 31, 2016 by Carbomb

[Benno]

My point with access is, when it's your buisiness to have an eye for talent you could have spotted a few of these guys. I don't buy their potential was unrecognisable. CM Punk carried himself like a star in ROH in 2004. There was plenty of time before and after the Feinstein stuff to make that work. Tyler Black looked a can't miss prospect. Kevin Steen was the best talker in the business for years. There was lots of chatter about Jon Moxley being something special. Daniel Bryan probably wouldn't have been the "Yes" superstar he became but he was the best technical wrestler in the world. There's a segment of fans he'd be huge with anywhere. Paul Heyman would have built the company around him.

 

That people didn't think they fit into the WWE top star mould of the time is no barrier for entry to what should have been the alternative product in TNA. Nobody's judgement is infallible of course. I personally didn't buy El Generico at all, but there were lots of people better placed than me saying he was one of the best babyfaces in the world and it turned out they were right.

 

Of course Okada winning the IWGP title straight off his TNA run was a shock. That doesn't mean people whose job it is to spot talent should be excused for thinking the best thing for someone of his level was to make him Samoa Joe's sidekick. New Japan are still mad about that. You have to believe they sent him over telling TNA he was somebody special.

 

"What more could they have done with AJ Styles" excuses the stop start nature of his tenure with the company. They were never consistent with him, they were always changing their mind. They made him the new Nature Boy, tried to turn him into Crow Sting and then tried to re-sign him for 10p. Kurt Angle vs Samoa Joe was great. They also drew a dick on his face. To a lesser degree, they realised Austin Aries was quite good for 6 months. Then they decided actually he was better suited to being in the X Division again. That they got people right in periods doesn't excuse the other bits of those years of mishandling by not seeing what you have.

Edited January 31, 2016 by Benno

[Big Benny HG]

It really is remarkable.

 

At some point just about everyone you could imagine has been through TNA's doors. Every hot US indie prospect. Every former mainstream star that still had some name value. Everyone that was still on TV when WCW and ECW went down. Through international deals for as long as they lasted, there has been the pick of stars from Japan, Mexico and Europe.

 

Hogan, Savage, Flair, Piper, Foley, Sting, Nash, Hall, Jarrett, RVD, Christian, Angle, Hardy, Raven, Shamrock, Punk, Tanahashi, Okada, Road Warriors, Steiners, Booker T, Styles, Joe, Aries, Daniels, Kazarian, Strong, Shelley, Sabin, Dreamer, Roode, Storm, Dudleys, Muta. EVERYONE. They've had everyone they could possibly ever have at some point. Every type of wrestler, something that every type of fan could be interested in.

 

Yet still they are what they are, and will never be anything more.

[WyattSheepMask]

For every guy that had some indy buzz or proven themselves something special that TNA didn't manage to sign, you can point out that they went as far as could be reasonably expected with guys they did sign - The Wolves were made into their top team and perennial champions, Joe got his run with Angle and won their World title title, Austin Aries realistically over-achieved by winning the World title and headlining a Bound For Glory with Jeff Hardy. I don't know how much "access" you can claim with a lot of those names, Benno, but with a lot of them "did not sign them" could be attributed to many reasons (many of which will lay with the choices of the talent, not with TNA) and could just as easily be considered "hard luck, TNA" rather than assuming they were incompetent and didn't spot the potential in any of them.

 

As for the guys they actually had use of - Punk left because of the "us and them" ultimatum in regards to ROH and the Feinstein scandal, regardless of whether they saw the potential in him. Okada might as well be Captain Hindsight's sidekick because he was legitimately nothing special until his frankly astonishing match with Tana for the big belt, the booking of him to win being the biggest upset in my eyes since Kid pinning Razor on a live Raw. That match and result transformed Okada from "who?" to a star in one match due to the huge balls of New Japan to take that chance on him, and nobody on the planet outside of New Japan's booking team had any idea that he could be that level of huge, so let's not be too harsh on TNA in that respect.

 

As for Styles..... what more could they have done with him?? There is ZERO "not knowing what they could have" with A.J. Styles. They put the belt on him.... what, 5 times? They made him THEIR star, virtually their Sting, even calling him "Mr TNA" on television, and lost him only when their pursestrings had to be tightened and they could no longer afford to pay him what he thought he was worth.

 

 

They had access to Tanahashi too, who had been IWGP Champion at least once at the time, and didn't do anything worthwhile with him

If we're thinking about the run I'm thinking of, in the briefest of windows they had to book Tana, they put him on a PPV with Styles. What else could they have done with him? They only had a couple of days. It's not like they had a New Japan invasion storyline that ran for six months and Tana was doing jobs for Red or Shark Boy.

I remember that match, which I think was around 2006?. They brought back a few of years later (I want to say around 2008, but I'm struggling) for another run though and he got dumped on Xplosion and then went back to Japan full time

[IANdrewDiceClay]

Tanahashi was there was a canny stretch in 2008. Usually losing in tag matches with Volador Jr. I remember he was in one of those 600 man X Division gaunlets as well. He was around for a while, but he was easy to miss, since he wasnt used at all. Reading up on it, they apparently did a job to Abyss and Matt Morgan. Which had to have been worse than losing to Red or Sharky, like air_raid suggested.

 

TNA had access to all of the New Japan roster. If they'd have not do shit like dressing Okada up like Kato or changing the IWGP tag titles on episodes of Impact without telling them, they could have had the pick of anyone they liked for a 6 month run every year. But there is such a general lack of communication in TNA, you'd have Jarrett bring them over and then Russo would have to write for them. And instead of pushing them, he'd just not use them. Becasuse he doesnt like Japanese wrestling. So you'd have all these guys just doing odds and ends on Xplosion.

Edited January 31, 2016 by IANdrewDiceClay

[UK Kat Von D]

Alex Shelley is is a big miss for TNA, he is a guy they could have had a star. AJ Styles and Samoa Joe are guys who are just so good that even TNA couldn't fuck them up. Sadly I think they do crushed Joe's spirit and he is no where near what he could have been for them.

 

The failed with Christopher Daniels too. They let him be shit for so long until he figured out how to become one of the best acts in the company. They left him fuck about as the Fallen Angel for years until he realised himself that it wasn't working. It's a real shame he wasn't nudged in the right direction sooner. He had been doing Curry Man for years, so it's not like this side of him was some hidden gem

[Undefeated Steak]

Alex Shelley is a great shout. The guys they've had pass through their doors is insane. Nobody can say they never had a chance to succeed. I always say this but Bobby Roode is the biggest waste of talent of this generation. He should've been a star.

 

Imagine if TNA did to their wrestlers what Lucha Underground do for theirs. They'd be giving Vince a run for his money by now

[UK Kat Von D]

Fuck my ability to string together a sentence was all over the place then. Had a toddler climbing on me while I was typing

 

TNA could have been a success just adopting the basics of Lucha Underground. Make the product stand out, use the wrestlers to their strengths and develop characters. It isn't just TNA, WWE fucking suck at this too. The shows have looked the same for ages and Vampiro has had more character development than Roman Reigns.

[wrestleuk]

Another night and another impressive crowd tna seem to have drawn well in Birmingham https://twitter.com/otpchris/status/693878938850951168

[Jon-Carr_92]

London's M&G had Hardy, Shera, Godders, Galloway, Eli Drake, EC3, Spud and Lashley.

From the looks of things, Birmingham's had Eric Young, Wolves, Bram, EC3 and Marti & Rebel from The Dollhouse.

 

Seeing photos of tonight, Birmingham isn't very packed compared to the 3000 the last show drew, which I went to. Like that time, the top tier of seating is tarped off in its "Academy" setup for the show.

[UK Kat Von D]

Another night and another impressive crowd tna seem to have drawn well in Birmingham https://twitter.com/otpchris/status/693878938850951168

Are you Jeremy Borash?

[Keith Houchen]

Another night and another impressive crowd tna seem to have drawn well in Birmingham https://twitter.com/otpchris/status/693878938850951168

Do you do the official count for Britain First demo's? Perhaps you use the Celtic Seville calculator?