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NXT - Post NXT Takeover discussion in progress

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1 hour ago, PunkStep said:

But they're one of the greatest bands of all time! Just ask @SuperBacon! ;)

Just like you lot sing that you’re “by far the greatest team the world has ever seen” 

eNjOy YoUr ThUrSdAy NiGhT gAmE :)

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Meltzer has given Gargano vs Cole 5.5 stars.

That makes this - in his opinion - the best WWE match of all time. 

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3 minutes ago, dopper said:

Meltzer has given Gargano vs Cole 5.5 stars.

That makes this - in his opinion - the best WWE match of all time. 

5.5* is fine. I've revised Austin/Hart to 100* as a result.

Seriously, it's all a nonsense. It's one blokes opinion. If he's seriously into this stuff to the point where he feels it's better than everything that's come before then fair play to him. I can't even imagine being that excited by modern wrestling. I'm not surprised he is though, he seems to have craved this sort of environment for decades.

Personally, I thought it was #3 match of the night. Let alone all time.

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Yeah, I didn't dig the first two falls but I was in tears by the end, with Ciampa joining Gargano and Candice on the ramp, so I can see where Dave is coming from. Would I give it a very high score like that? No. Is it better than Gargano vs Almas or Bayley vs Sasha? No. But everything from the final fall onwards was solid, highest quality gold and it made me cough a lot in order to push the lump in my throat further down by the end. Can't fault Dave for feeling that.

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On 4/12/2019 at 11:44 AM, Accident Prone said:

Yeah, I didn't dig the first two falls but I was in tears by the end, with Ciampa joining Gargano and Candice on the ramp, so I can see where Dave is coming from. Would I give it a very high score like that? No. Is it better than Gargano vs Almas or Bayley vs Sasha? No. But everything from the final fall onwards was solid, highest quality gold and it made me cough a lot in order to push the lump in my throat further down by the end. Can't fault Dave for feeling that.

I realise I’m probably in the minority, but I fucking hated that. If they had done it after the show just for the people in attendance, I wouldn’t be bothered, but after Gargano tried to rip Ciampa’s face off with his knee brace a year earlier, and everything that happened between then and now, for all three of them, baring in mind Candice fucking hated Ciampa for “everything you’ve done to us” and how her wedding memories were ruined because Ciampa is plastered all over them, to then all go “hey! We’re all friends now!” was utter bullshit. 

Gargano had already had the feel-good ending in finally winning the belt, it didn’t need Ciampa there

Edited by WyattSheepMask

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I’m stunned anyone can think it’s better than Austin Bret or Taker Michaels HIAC, especially someone that’s been watching for 40 years. 

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It seems ridiculous and I don't agree on any level, but in Meltzer's defense...

I was just thinking about what I'd say if I was asked what my favourite era of wrestling is. So many people here seem so passionate about different times in wrestling, whether it's 80's or 90's or 00's, WWF or Memphis or Japan, but I think, for me, the answer is always "whatever's happening at the moment". I love wrestling but I tend not to look back too much. There's always so much that, for all the bad you may see, there are always parts you'll find to really love. It sounds to me like Meltzer's kind of like that too. And ratings may look like they're this objective, empirical thing, but as tiger_rick said, it's one guy's opinion, and there are a hundred reasons why he might have enjoyed Gargano/Cole more than Bret/Austin or Michaels/Taker or whatever else. Honestly, there's no right answer to what's best or better when it comes to art, just what affects you. If Meltzer was more affected by Gargano/Cole in 2019 than Bret/Austin in 1997, that's perfectly reasonable. All he's been doing for years with ratings is sharing his opinions of what he felt in a moment. It's up to everyone else whether they put any stock in it. Presuming he's being sincere and not just trolling people, fair play to him for having the conviction to say, "fuck it, I know this will annoy people, but this is how I feel", rather than trying to adhere to some kind of wrestling fan's orthodoxy about what's good and why.

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On 4/13/2019 at 4:51 PM, WyattSheepMask said:

I realise I’m probably in the minority, but I fucking hated that. If they had done it after the show just for the people in attendance, I wouldn’t be bothered, but after Gargano tried to rip Ciampa’s face off with his knee brace a year earlier, and everything that happened between then and now, for all three of them, baring in mind Candice fucking hated Ciampa for “everything you’ve done to us” and how her wedding memories were ruined because Ciampa is plastered all over them, to then all go “hey! We’re all friends now!” was utter bullshit. 

Gargano had already had the feel-good ending in finally winning the belt, it didn’t need Ciampa there

100% agreed. Even if the dynamic's changed with Ciampa's injury, and them both getting the pseudo-call-up to the main roster, to reduce that feud to a jokey, "he's behind me, isn't he?" is preposterous. You could make the case that Gargano and Ciampa have moved on to a point where they're on the same page now, but Candice? Who not only hated Ciampa, but hated what her husband became when fighting Ciampa, and desperately pleaded with him not to reunite with him? She's happy just having a big old love-in at the end of the show with them both?

It's part of my problem with the whole match - it was Johnny Gargano as "boyhood dream comes true" smiley pure babyface, but we're a good year removed from Gargano actually being that character. We know now that he's an emotionally volative, easily manipulated and often sadistic egotist, not the smiling good guy he was at the start of the feud, and he hasn't had sufficient character development back in the opposite direction for the shift to make sense.

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On 4/12/2019 at 8:37 AM, tiger_rick said:

5.5* is fine. I've revised Austin/Hart to 100* as a result.

Seriously, it's all a nonsense. It's one blokes opinion. If he's seriously into this stuff to the point where he feels it's better than everything that's come before then fair play to him. I can't even imagine being that excited by modern wrestling. I'm not surprised he is though, he seems to have craved this sort of environment for decades.

Personally, I thought it was #3 match of the night. Let alone all time.

You're not wrong that it's just one person's opinion, but it's also the only opinion that a lot of online smart fans (and wrestlers by the sounds of it) actually care about.  It just feels like there's this shitty feedback loop where wrestlers put on the sort of match Meltzer will score highly, he praises them and so they do it more.

I'm just a little grumpy as the sort of wrestling I like is, I suspect, pretty much a thing of the past now.  I really enjoy NXT, it's my favourite brand, but you can see they've now fully embraced this new "Shawn Michaels on fast forward" style and everyone is expected to learn how to do it.  So it'll be the ongoing WWE style for the next 5-10 years I guess unless mounting injuries force them to re-think.

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So glad others feel the same about what a mess that character and storyline became. I saw people saying it was, "all worth it," for that embrace at the end, but what fucking sense did that make beyond,  "this is all fake and these lads are good mates really"?

I didn't watch the TV leading into Gargano vs. Cole. Was it ever explained why Johnny reverted back to being a pure babyface? Or did he just show up on the night and pretend the last nine months hadn't happened?

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12 minutes ago, Supremo said:

I didn't watch the TV leading into Gargano vs. Cole. Was it ever explained why Johnny reverted back to being a pure babyface? Or did he just show up on the night and pretend the last nine months hadn't happened?

I don't know if it made TV, as I've fallen out of the habit of watching NXT weekly, but I know they filmed a Dusty Rhodes Classic final in which the aftermath was Gargano slamming Ciampa's head into the stage in an echo of the original Ciampa turn, and that was his face turn.

But even then, it's him being violent and vindictive, not the Happy To Be Here babyface he apparently is back to now.

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It was the semi-final, Gargano faked an injury (ages into a competitive match), Ciampa lost, then he tried to do the same to Johnny on the ramp that he did way back when, and Gargano reversed it. Candice was on the ramp too, delighted with what her hubby did to evil Ciampa. Then Trips came out the following week and said Ciampa was injured and he can't make them face each other for the title at Takeover. I knew Ciampa was injured (didn't know how bad) but why wasn't it kayfabe because of what Gargano did to him? They still aired it yet went on to pretend it didn't happen. That's what irked me the most. A rare misstep by NXT storytelling, for me.

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2 hours ago, Loki said:

You're not wrong that it's just one person's opinion, but it's also the only opinion that a lot of online smart fans (and wrestlers by the sounds of it) actually care about.  It just feels like there's this shitty feedback loop where wrestlers put on the sort of match Meltzer will score highly, he praises them and so they do it more.

I'm just a little grumpy as the sort of wrestling I like is, I suspect, pretty much a thing of the past now.  I really enjoy NXT, it's my favourite brand, but you can see they've now fully embraced this new "Shawn Michaels on fast forward" style and everyone is expected to learn how to do it.  So it'll be the ongoing WWE style for the next 5-10 years I guess unless mounting injuries force them to re-think.

I can't say it excites me that much either. When it's done well, it's great. But it'll be a shame if that's all there is. Unfortunately as long as they are polishing guys in their own image constantly, it's going to continue. 

That said, I'm surprised that this is the style. Considering post attitude era all you heard was how guys need to slow down and make things mean something and you had Trips doing his pound shop Flair impression while they attempted (badly) to recreate mid-south.

I thought the Randy Orton would be the prototype for their production line talent rather than early 2000s indy.

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10 minutes ago, tiger_rick said:

I thought the Randy Orton would be the prototype for their production line talent rather than early 2000s indy.

To an extent, I think it is. 

We hear constant complaints of NXT talent being misused on the main roster, but there's a clear distinction between the ex-indie NXT talent getting called up, and the Performance Center "graduates". 

Baron Corbin retired Kurt Angle, Lars Sullivan is starting out with a monster push, Elias is a featured part of most shows, Braun Strowman is - despite everything - still a top level talent, and so on. Velveteen Dream is likely to be the next breakout star from NXT. All of those guys are far more "Randy Orton" than they are "early 2000s indy".

I think what we're seeing is the nature of NXT changing, so that the "super indie" business model is the public face of the product, while most of the actual developmental work, and building who Vince/WWE sees the true stars as being, is happening off-camera.

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Luke Harper vs Dominik Dijakovic from that Worlds Collide show was a fun little heavyweight match. Great to see Harper back and getting over as a babyface. It'll break my heart if they stick him back with Bray Wyatt.

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