NXT - Post NXT Takeover discussion in progress

[Yakashi]

This is, rightly or wrongly, the type of wrestling that the vocal audience wants and the type that most of the ex indie roster want to deliver. 

[kieranjennings]

 

And it's being done in front of smaller crowds than ever so perhaps it's not the best way forward. There is too much now placed on a 'competitive match with good spots' rather than the feeling so it will only draw in people who want to see people bump and jump straight back up and do a convoluted finish.

 

[BomberPat]

I enjoyed the show, but I'll agree about the lack of heat. 

Meltzer apparently said the main event was a candidate for the best WWE match of all time, the old mentalist. It only just made my top three matches of this show.

I enjoyed Ricochet & Black vs. The War Raiders a lot - I'm quite a fan of the War Raiders, and while normally I like the big lads to wrestle like big lads, in a babyface vs. babyface match, especially in the opener, them hitting flippy shit helped keep that dynamic going, rather than positioning them more as big brute-ish bullies throwing the fan favourites around. There are questions to be asked as to why the War Raiders are babyfaces, but that's where we are. At least their flippy nonsense mostly has some heft behind it, still. 
 

Velveteen Dream vs. Matt Riddle was good - another babyface vs babyface match (I've seen people insist that Dream is a heel, he's not), though at least Riddle tried to generate some heat by heeling it up during the match. This was good fun, and I love that in an increasingly indie-influenced and MMA-influenced product, Dream is purely an old-fashioned pro wrestler in terms of the moves and mannerisms he uses, yet more than keeps up with the indie lads. 

Walter vs Dunne was my match of the night. Walter got a pop for a leapfrog, and Pete messing with Walter's fingers got better pops than most of the big high spots. This was maybe ostensibly a heel vs face match, except Walter's not really been explicitly a heel wrestler yet, nor do the crowd react to him as one, so again that dynamic's a bit wonky. It made Walter seem like a beast, put Dunne over as a dominant champion, and the belt as something worth fighting for, so that was all good.

Women's Fatal 4 Way was good but not great, served its purpose, had some fun spots. Shayna being stuck in NXT is ridiculous when she's the best heel in the company. This one had some actual heat, as the crowd genuinely wanted to see Shayna lose, and hated every time he got the submission in.

Gargano vs. Cole was the living embodiment of the "Both These Guys" chant, up until the closing ten minutes. No heat, just moves. Very nice moves, but I didn't give a shit, because I'm not remotely invested in either character. They've made a right pig's ear of Gargano's character arc, while Adam Cole is the same substanceless smug prick he was when he debuted, with no development whatsoever - particularly egregious when Fish & O'Reilly, and even Roderick Strong to some extent, have really grown as characters and shown a lot more personality since debuting, and Cole hasn't changed a bit.
This one's ostensibly heel vs face, but Adam Cole shifts T-shirts and has a shoutalong catchphrase, so the crowd tend to give him face reactions anyway, and it's only in the final fall that he really felt like a heel.
Given Ciampa's injury I can't really blame them for not having much of a build to this, but this could have been so much better if Gargano's character had any believability to it any more. The announcers really tried to get over this as his "boyhood dream becomes reality" pure babyface moment, but we've spent the last year learning that Gargano isn't that pure whitemeat babyface at all, he's an emotionally volatile, easily manipulated little shit prone to acts of extreme violence. We saw that character develop over months and months, you can't just hit the reset button and say, "no, it's Johnny Gargano, that guy you like" again with no equivalent character development. I could do without another "Johnny <Insert Noun>" promo ever again in my life, too.

I'm normally a fan of Mauro Ranallo, but he had an absolute shocker of a show.

[Yakashi]

1 hour ago, kieranjennings said:

 

And it's being done in front of smaller crowds than ever so perhaps it's not the best way forward. There is too much now placed on a 'competitive match with good spots' rather than the feeling so it will only draw in people who want to see people bump and jump straight back up and do a convoluted finish.

 

That’s not true though is it. There’s lots of other companies doing really well. New Japan are constantly breaking business records. Cody and the boys have done well. NXT consistently sells out. The style of wrestling isn’t why wwe metrics continue to drop. It’s because the product is bad and people don’t want to watch it anymore. No one is turning off because ricochet is doing flips. 

[AdamTH17]

8 minutes ago, Yakashi said:

That’s not true though is it. There’s lots of other companies doing really well. New Japan are constantly breaking business records. Cody and the boys have done well. NXT consistently sells out. The style of wrestling isn’t why wwe metrics continue to drop. It’s because the product is bad and people don’t want to watch it anymore. No one is turning off because ricochet is doing flips. 

WWE is struggling because they have absolutely no full-time stars, somewhat through their own faults, and the only people they can rely on to be box office draws for them have got them bent over a barrel. The product is bad, sure, but they've been in far worse states than what they're currently in.

[Retro Red]

WWE posted record revenue reports for 2018, and signed a huge TV deal last year. They aren't struggling, not even remotely.

[marc2j]

I think theres a lot to be said about the style of feedback thats immediately available these days. Twitter and the likes mean that people can give instant feedback on what they are seeing. Equally, typically, people are more engaged with giving negative feedback than positive feedback. So Twitter might be pissed off with the show, people on forums might be, but they are still selling out their big shows and coining it in. So they are doing something right.

[Yakashi]

3 minutes ago, Bicurious Dad said:

WWE posted record revenue reports for 2018, and signed a huge TV deal last year. They aren't struggling, not even remotely.

I didn’t say they were struggling. But they’ve never been less popular since about 95. They’re constantly posting record low ratings. House attendance is terrible. Less people want to watch their product. 

My my point is simply that the reason they’ve never been less popular isn’t because of moves and flips. It’s because of a poor product that makes no sense and that, when they do get stars, they kill them because they’re shit at writing. How do you make Ronda rousey, one of the biggest money draws in history, mean nothing? How can you be that shit?

[kieranjennings]

19 minutes ago, Yakashi said:

That’s not true though is it. There’s lots of other companies doing really well. New Japan are constantly breaking business records. Cody and the boys have done well. NXT consistently sells out. The style of wrestling isn’t why wwe metrics continue to drop. It’s because the product is bad and people don’t want to watch it anymore. No one is turning off because ricochet is doing flips. 

I've not mega research but crowds aren't what they were (just look at Raw attendances), sure there are good crowds for some other companies in the US but they run infrequently rather than attracting consistent regular crowds. TV figures are down too but I appreciate revenue is up for lots of different reasons

However, if you don't have people in the shows who tell stories people 'care' about then where is the reason to come back? How does the audience build and how do new 'stars' get created? If I watch a TV show that is beautifully acted but I don't engage with any of the characters then I won't watch consistently. To me that is what is happening with wrestling. The current style that doesn't rely on selling, great facials etc. doesn't do enough for me 

[BomberPat]

WWE are turning record profits. The conversation maybe shouldn't be that their "less popular". but rather that the metrics by which they measure success are changing.

[tiger_rick]

You can't think of it from the POV of "me". Neither you or I are their entire audience. This forum is a great place to chat about what they have done, could do or might do but if you just come down to "it doesn't work for me" then it's the "me" that needs to change because the rest isn't gonna.

[kieranjennings]

25 minutes ago, tiger_rick said:

You can't think of it from the POV of "me". Neither you or I are their entire audience. This forum is a great place to chat about what they have done, could do or might do but if you just come down to "it doesn't work for me" then it's the "me" that needs to change because the rest isn't gonna.

Oh I get that, which I was I'm way less engaged with watching it these days. I tend to watch the older stuff on the Network as it suits what I like more. However, this time of year I tend to dip into the new stuff and each year I lose more interest in what is being put out because I don't see anyone that makes me want to watch more. I understand the path they are on and that it's probably not for met. The 20 year old me who loved ECW and matches from Japan would probably love it now though

[Ricc1PW]

watched this, don't tend to watch the weekly NXT TV but catch Takeover etc.

 

thought it was a good show, some excellent matches, and the main event was great too, but just too many kick outs. it became silly, and I was taken out of the match completely by how ridiculous the amount of punishment Gargano was taking and still kicking out was.

[AdamTH17]

Really minor thing to pick up on, but I really enjoyed the way in which they set up the Dream/Murphy match for next week with the whole Dream streaming on Instagram thing. It's such a tiny, effortless thing to factor in that makes the build to a match seem much more fulfilling and organic than "uhhhh we want Dream to wrestle Murphy so let's uhhhh just make it happen!"

Jaxson Ryker fucking blows, too. I can't believe I used to push him on EWR. Aichner and Bathel are great together. Wish I pushed them instead.

[Statto]

Soooo, that new open of the roster doing the Wrestlerock Rumble to a Slipknot song, in 2019...

Nigel: “It’s time for tag team action!”

*Singles match takes place*