Paid Members BomberPat Posted August 6 Paid Members Share Posted August 6 5 minutes ago, JLM said: The video @Cousin Jim Bob posted infuriates me and both of these points are reasons why. OK the guy isn't north of Luton, but it's still a smug centrist dunking on this idiot without addressing any of the real issues here. Yes the caller sounds very stupid and yes he has bought into all sorts of lies on social media, but our big-brained host "taking him down" still concedes "yes small boats are a problem but it's not ALL black people". He isn't trying to explain to the caller that demonising migrants and foreigners is a distraction from the real problems. He's saying "yes, you're right to be up in arms about the boat people, but you've taken it TOO FAR." The narrative is "the reason your life is shit/this country is shit is because of immigrants/illegals/all foreigners" but the "your life is shit" part isn't being addressed. It's all well and good Starmer using better words like "riots" and "violence" but he is still going to deliver four years of neoliberal business as usual. He himself still had to make sure he had a "stop the boats" plan as part of his platform, so legitimised that narrative in a more weaselly way. So he'll just condemn people when they get duped and their anger and frustration is exploited by complete turds like Robinson and Farage. Sir Kier can't come out and say "migrants and brown people aren't why you should be mad. It's the guys who were just in power, and of course it's us as well because we'll be delivering a more palatable version of the same shit. We won't back unions, we won't do anything about wealth inequality or poverty, we won't look at electoral reform, your lives will still be shit, we'll just put the fires out when your anger gets out of hand and the worst people in the world take advantage of that." Absolutely! I was talking to my Dad last week about how the right's greatest victory is entirely framing the conversation around immigration - which is why it enrages me when I hear their useful idiots even today saying that this is all happening because they're being "silenced" or that they're "not allowed to talk about" immigration, as if we haven't been forced to hear them talking about nothing but fucking immigration for the past twenty years. They've been so successful in that that, as you say, Starmer and other supposedly left-liberal or centrist politicians are still talking about "stopping the boats", they're debating the Tories' immigration policy on whether it's efficient or cost-effective, they're promising that they will bring immigration numbers down more successfully. There is no one in a mainstream political position that isn't accepting at face value the right-wing premise that immigration is inherently a problem to be solved. There's nobody making the case for immigration. There's the occasional pundit saying, "it was immigrants who saved my mother's life in the NHS", but aside from the fact that this is a meaningless point to right-wing political groups who want to eradicate the NHS anyway, it always smacks of "there's some good ones". Nobody is making the argument that immigration is, at worst, a neutral act. It has to be framed as a problem. We have an aging population and a fertility rate that's below replacement levels, and the only people talking about it are far-right loons obsessed with Great Replacement Theory and White Genocide, rather than anyone making the very rational point that when you've got more and more old people living longer and longer and fewer and fewer young people entering the workforce, you either need to drastically remodel your economy or you need to source that labour from somewhere. Realistically, you need both, which means we need immigration to function. And even if we didn't, people should have the right to free movement and to live wherever they want, regardless of whether someone deems them "useful" to that society or not. This shouldn't be a radical view. 3 minutes ago, FLips said: Obviously these things can happen without social media but the amount of kids out there rioting and attacking people is astonishing and you would think the majority of them wouldn't even have considered doing it if the likes of Twitter and TikTok weren't around. There will, and hopefully soon, come a point where governments realise they're more detrimental than anything and outright ban the lot of them. They've came a long way since 2006 where you'd just use it for FarmVille and chatting to your mates between games of COD. There's been court hearings in Middlesbrough today and the amount of them that were sobbing kids in over their heads was shocking. I'm sure social media has exacerbated it, but I think social media is driving more middle-aged adults into extremism than kids. Kids aren't on Twitter or Facebook, because they're uncool old apps that their parents are on. They might be on TikTok, but I imagine even that is fading in use among teenagers. Violent thug kids are going to be violent thug kids and be opportunists, because they always have been, and always feel like they're invincible because they're teenagers and that's how that works. They're also far more likely to see sense one day and grow out of it. Whereas your uncle who's been Facebook-poisoned and posts six memes a day of Keir Starmer in a burka is past saving. As far as social media goes, I think there's a massive exposé coming about where a lot of the organisation behind hate movements in this country has come from. A bunch of anti-vax and anti-lockdown groups and pages on Facebook pivoted to anti-LGBTQ+ political movements, or to anti-ULEZ protests and anti-15 Minute City conspiracies once the pandemic was over because, fuck it, they've already got a captive audience, a bunch of people's data, and an effective mailing list, so why not? I guarantee you that those protests were used as recruitment drives for increasingly more right-wing groups - one minute you're complaining about a 20mph speed limit, the next you're in a Telegram chat with Combat-18 and you're not sure how you got there. Tommy Robinson held a protest march in London maybe two weeks ago, and I guarantee that there was data shared and mailing lists created there with the express intent of coordinating the sort of attacks we're seeing now. That's the part that makes social media dangerous, far more than kids being violent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Chest Rockwell Posted August 6 Moderators Share Posted August 6 9 minutes ago, BomberPat said: There is no one in a mainstream political position that isn't accepting at face value the right-wing premise that immigration is inherently a problem to be solved. There's nobody making the case for immigration. That's probably the biggest thing that I do remember from the SNP chap during the election debates that endeared him to me. I can't even remember his name now but I remember that he was vocally and unashamedly pro immigration. But yeah, obviously not really major mainstream voice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Lion_of_the_Midlands Posted August 6 Paid Members Share Posted August 6 1 hour ago, LCJ said: Elon Musk is making matters even worse. If you could point to the specific times Elon has made things better then I'd be obliged. They couldn't even rescue some boys trapped in a cave without him calling one of the rescue workers a paedophile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SuperBacon Posted August 6 Members Share Posted August 6 This is a nice bit of levity here. Pretty certain I've said this before but these sorts of situations* always make me think of my sisters (who have an Indian Dad) and the fact that up until the age of around 7 or 8, I was led to believe they were from Malta (maybe Cyprus) I assume to protect them, and us, against racism growing up. Even though I grew up on an estate in Isleworth. I reckon there are only a handful of places outside of Hounslow with larger Asian populations, so it's not as if we grew up in a 99.9% white village. I don't even think they knew their Dad was Indian. I've never really asked my Dad why we were told this, because I think deep down I don't really want to know. I just hate the fact that someone might have asked my parents about them and they would answer "Oh god no, they're not Indian" it makes me feel physically sick. Fucking mental, and it makes me really sad that had to happen to them (it didn't stop them being racially abused of course) and I can't even imagine how BAME people are feeling at the moment, but just know that we all love you, and are here for you if you need to vent etc. Stay safe brothers and sisters of the keff. *racism is everyday I know. I'm sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members JLM Posted August 6 Paid Members Share Posted August 6 Getting choked up listening to Darren the doorman. Beautiful. I have an immigrant story. Well I have a lot of them due to my heritage, but one that springs to mind after listening to Darren: My great uncle was cured of his racism by a Chinese family who moved in next door. He was the stereotypical bitter and lonely old man who nobody visited because he was such a miserable git, but Mr. Li invited him round for dinner with the family on New Year's eve one time because they knew he lived alone and didn't get many visitors. This then became an annual tradition and they eventually became best pals. He went from fearing and hating all foreigners, to "except the Li family next door they're alright" to embracing my Mauritian dad before I was born. I used to go and visit him a couple of times a year with my mum growing up. I only found out years after he died that if Mr. Li hadn't intervened I probably wouldn't have met him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironic Indie Lad Posted August 6 Share Posted August 6 (edited) JLMs post reminds me of a time years ago when a friend of my then girlfriend started on a "theres too many foreigns taking our jobs" style thicko rant. Cant quite remember what sparked this but my ex let her get it off her chest before saying "... you do realise you've known my dad since you were a child and he is an immigrant?" She quickly responded with “Yeah he is one of the few good ones though!". That mentality has always stuck with me for some reason. The idea that someone just assumes all foreign people = bad unless they are good to them personally. That person could be cured of racism if only every single immigrant was nice to them on an individual basis. They are probably too busy scrounging benefits to bother doing that though ? Edited August 6 by Ironic Indie Lad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted August 6 Paid Members Share Posted August 6 What I never understand about THEY TOOK ERR JERRBS is nobody ever seems to blame the bosses for not employing them. But then this country has a culture of this. When the country goes to shit, it's never the establishment that's to blame (unless it's to enable immigrants). When union workers go on strike, it's never the bosses to blame. Fucking bunch of bootlickers. It's something of a minor miracle to me that we ever had enough of a culture of solidarity here to build a union movement, let alone still have one now, diminished though it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Chest Rockwell Posted August 6 Moderators Share Posted August 6 21 minutes ago, JLM said: Getting choked up listening to Darren the doorman. Beautiful. It was the evening consisting of a curry followed by a kebab wasn't it? The real way to heart of a UKFFer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SuperBacon Posted August 6 Members Share Posted August 6 2 minutes ago, Chest Rockwell said: It was the evening consisting of a curry followed by a kebab wasn't it? The real way to heart of a UKFFer. The fact that he's a doorman means he would probably be having a curry on a Saturday night BEFORE his shift as well. Salute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members FLips Posted August 6 Paid Members Share Posted August 6 1 hour ago, BomberPat said: I'm sure social media has exacerbated it, but I think social media is driving more middle-aged adults into extremism than kids. Kids aren't on Twitter or Facebook, because they're uncool old apps that their parents are on. They might be on TikTok, but I imagine even that is fading in use among teenagers. Violent thug kids are going to be violent thug kids and be opportunists, because they always have been, and always feel like they're invincible because they're teenagers and that's how that works. They're also far more likely to see sense one day and grow out of it. Whereas your uncle who's been Facebook-poisoned and posts six memes a day of Keir Starmer in a burka is past saving. Perhaps you're right about Facebook and Twitter but I have a 13 year old Niece and her entire life revolves around shit she's seen on TikTok that gets shared around her friend group/school. Her entire personality is based on memes and TikToks and it's the same with her whole group of friends. Not that it's a direct comparison and please don't think I'm saying one is anything like the other but it's gotten her attending local Pride events and marches, so it's very easy to see how if you didn't have such a good head on your shoulders you could end up on the other side of the fence attending the wrong types of marches and events. It probably took next to nothing to get some of these kids to attend outside of someone they know online livestreaming it and having parents that raised them shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members JLM Posted August 6 Paid Members Share Posted August 6 (edited) It's harder to have a good head on your shoulders if you live in a shithole, have had no opportunities in life and are angry and frustrated without a full understanding of why, though. My nieces see all the same garbage on social media, but "your life is shit because of foreigners" is harder to sell to them because their lives are not shit. They have been raised in a nice area and have had a good education and the family has never struggled for money. You can't tell them that foreigners have taken away their housing and money and job opportunities, because they haven't wanted for those things. They're also dual heritage, which admittedly makes the foreigners thing a harder sell as well, but you could substitute "your life is shit because of benefits scroungers" and the point stands. To be clear, I'm not saying if you grow up poor you can't raise kids well or that you are necessarily going to be a criminal or a bigot or any of that stuff, or indeed that having a tough upbringing excuses all bad behaviour. I'm just saying social media is a means by which the message is spread, but I think tackling the reasons for people's susceptibility to it is more important than shutting it down. People would find other ways to get the message out. Perhaps televised news and printed newspapers would get a bit of their influence back and it'd be the good old fashioned printed Daily Mail instead of The Mail Online riling up the masses. Mass unrest, genocidal regimes coming to power and full blown revolutions have all taken place without the aid of social media and would continue to happen if it were banned. People are pissed off - > Politicians and grifters give them a scapegoat - > People kick off is just a timeless classic unfortunately. Edited August 6 by JLM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SuperBacon Posted August 7 Members Share Posted August 7 I'm in a Spurs supporters group chat and this morning someone posted/forwarded the message of the 30 "targets" or whatever with ? emojis and something about meeting etc, but it was quickly dealt with by admin. They deleted it, told the guy they'd pass this on to the police, kicked him out but its scary how easily the information can get spread and to what you would think is a fairly innocuous group chat, which goes to show you don't have to go looking for this information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobra_gordo Posted August 7 Share Posted August 7 I'd seen that too, it's all over the place to the extent our work sent everybody home early yesterday off the back of it and told us all to work from home today. It turns out one of the neighbouring buildings does something to do with processing immigration/ asylum seekers and they're concerned it could kick off. One of the Asian lads in my team has just been on the phone to me, obviously concerned that he could be targeted because of how he looks, despite him being born in Sheffield and having a stronger Yorkshire accent than me. Poor lad didn't even necessarily sound scared, just completely gutted that this is even happening. At what point does this start getting called terrorism because I'm fucked for any other way to classify it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SuperBacon Posted August 7 Members Share Posted August 7 Yeah was supposed to be in Southampton today but was told not to go in, as where I was going is a refugee employment business. I don't actually think anything will happen there if I'm being honest, same as I don't believe any places like Brentford or Walthamstow will as they're not brave enough to go anywhere they might be confronted (of course I could be wrong) but if someone does kick off in Southampton, it could go very wrong as bloody Lazio are playing them tonight and those most fascist of fascists need very little excuse for a dust up. I hope they all fall in the Solent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted August 7 Paid Members Share Posted August 7 Was saying to Chris B that I would <keegan> love it </keegan> if they tried it on in my local area, Harringay Green Lanes - the Turkish mafia here were the reason most of the shops didn't get hit in the 2012 riots. Let's just say I wouldn't be comfortable eating any kebabs in those establishments for the next few months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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