The General Politics Thread v2.0 (AKA the "Labour are Cunts" thread)

[SuperBacon]

26 minutes ago, David said:

It ultimately boils down to just how fervently people desire to see the Tories ousted from power. 

I don't agree. This makes it sound like if you don't vote for Labour, you don't want the Tories ousted and I don't think that's true at all. You can not vote Labour and still want them out. 

23 minutes ago, Lion_of_the_Midlands said:

Judean People's Front v People's Front Of Judea

Fuck off!

[David]

7 minutes ago, SuperBacon said:

I don't agree. This makes it sound like if you don't vote for Labour, you don't want the Tories ousted and I don't think that's true at all. You can not vote Labour and still want them out. 

Oh, you can still want them out. But just not quite enough to put a little tick in the box next to Labour come voting day. Which tells me that they don't want them out badly enough.

[SuperBacon]

5 minutes ago, David said:

Oh, you can still want them out. But just not quite enough to put a little tick in the box next to Labour come voting day. Which tells me that they don't want them out badly enough.

I still don't agree with that, but each to their own.

[David]

23 minutes ago, SuperBacon said:

I still don't agree with that, but each to their own.

I don't see what there is to not agree with? 

It appears reasonable to conclude that the sole political entity with a real prospect of supplanting the Tories is the Labour Party, does it not? So, casting a vote for any alternative, in the larger context, would have little to no effect in the grand scheme of things.

It is an established fact that the Tory loyalists shall do their duty, while a significant portion of the centrists and the indecisive types will invariably opt for the familiar "devil they know" and the perceived "safe option," as is their customary inclination. It then surely stands to reason that any individual who truly desires to see the Tories ousted from power would hardly contribute to advancing that objective by supporting the Liberal Democrats, the Green Party, or any other alternative, does it not?

For clarity, I'm not saying that this is a good thing. It's a sub-standard system, but it's the system we have. 

Edited May 19, 2023 by David

[SuperBacon]

No I understand all of that very well, but again, I don't agree that if you don't vote Labour, then you don't "badly" want to oust the Tories. 

I'm sure Keith "badly" wants to oust the Tories but judging by his posts won't vote Labour for his own personal reasons.

For me, one doesn't mean the other. He can still "badly" want them out and choose to not vote Labour.

But anyway, I'm going to bed. 10pm on a Friday. That rock and roll eh? Night all x

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by SuperBacon

[Chest Rockwell]

Voting for labour in my area is not going to directly lead them to gaining a seat or any more actual power. So it's also not even universally true at the most basic level. 

[Keith Houchen]

1 minute ago, Chest Rockwell said:

Voting for labour in my area is not going to directly lead them to gaining a seat or any more actual power. So it's also not even universally true at the most basic level. 

It’s the reverse up here. They’re going to hold the seat they already hold with a huge majority. However with me not voting for Jeff Smith could really dent that 28k majority and hand it to the tories who were third last time, because I don’t want the tories out enough. Or something. 

[David]

15 minutes ago, SuperBacon said:

I'm sure Keith "badly" wants to oust the Tories but judging by his posts won't vote Labour for his own personal reasons.

And so it shall come to pass, in this unrelenting saga of political turmoil and national discord, that Keith shall bear the burden of blame. A name that will echo through the corridors of power, a scapegoat for all the woes that beset our great nation. Boris, Rishi, Brexit - all intertwined in the tapestry of Keith's perceived failings.

The stalwarts of old, the loyal followers of the once-trusted figures of Highfield Road, shall cast their disapproving gaze upon him. Gary Bannister, Oggy, big Brian K, and Sedgley, pillars of legendary status, shall find their allegiance shaken to the core. Our children, their hopes and aspirations, once nurtured by the promises of a brighter future, now dashed upon the rocks of Keith's perceived betrayal.

[Keith Houchen]

And of course, both the real Houchen and Oggy are massive tories! North East dodgy Tory arsehole Ben Houchen is Keith’s nephew. 
 

Amazing isn’t it, I’m the one who is the best Houchen. Me! That shows how bad Ben is!

[ReturnOfTheMack]

Im pissed, so apologies if this makes.no sense.

Ultimately it comes down to what is most important to you, removal of the Tories or voting to your personal values. And sure, those values could be purely 'anything but Tories'. I'm lucky that I live in a Labour massive majority area, so I don't have to balance those things. I vote based on using the Policies Not People stuff, so I can at least think I'm voting on where my personal beliefs lie. 

But I sure as fuck won't criticise people who make the compromise for what they see as the less bad option. 

[Carbomb]

I won't criticise people who vote Labour to get the Tories out. It's a fairly easy thing to understand.

Likewise I won't criticise those who refuse to vote Labour after having their politics scuppered and demonised. 

The "centrists" like to talk about realpolitik - well, this is it. These are the real-world consequences of kicking your allies in the teeth.

My constituency is a Labour stronghold, so my vote doesn't matter. But if I thought for one moment the Greens or TUSC might get in, I might vote for them in the hopes of forcing a broad left coalition that would keep Labour honest.

[BigJag]

The belief that a person's vote does not matter is a problem. That attitude pervades and creates apathy. Leicester East, a majority Asian area, voted in a number of Tory councillors in the recent election. Voter turnout was 60% at best. It was as low as 22% in some wards. That's just fucking shit. How can supposedly intelligent people be convinced that their vote is important? I've seen mention of young voters being more engaged. That certainly does not seem to be the case in Leicester East.

Labour, despite managing to hold the City, didn't help their cause. Mainly by dividing elements of their asian vote bank with internal subterfuge.

 

[CavemanLynn]

FPTP is also always going to favour the "side" with the most unity. Labour, Greens, et al all broadly carry policies I support, but any one of those parties is going to carry a smaller percentage of that non-Tory vote. "Government" and "not the Government" is reductive, but that is essentially the position our system has put us in, and will always favour the incumbent majority gaining the highest percentage of a dwindling disenfranchised electorate.

[Chest Rockwell]

1 hour ago, BigJag said:

The belief that a person's vote does not matter is a problem.

I would argue that the fact that some peoples' votes don't matter is a bigger issue.

But to answer your question anyway - Westminster politics is much more visible. I think it would help if people knew what the fuck local councillors even do. 

Edited May 20, 2023 by Chest Rockwell

[garynysmon]

1 hour ago, CavemanLynn said:

FPTP is also always going to favour the "side" with the most unity. Labour, Greens, et al all broadly carry policies I support, but any one of those parties is going to carry a smaller percentage of that non-Tory vote. "Government" and "not the Government" is reductive, but that is essentially the position our system has put us in, and will always favour the incumbent majority gaining the highest percentage of a dwindling disenfranchised electorate.

The worst part of fptp for me is the pressure to vote tactically, which makes smaller parties look weaker than they should be, thus solidifying the two party status quo.

There’s also issues with the bigger party (usually Labour), pleading on supporters of smaller parties to ‘lend’ their votes to them.

There’s never a time when that vote is paid back though.

Edited May 20, 2023 by garynysmon