Survivor Series 2022

[DavidB6937]

16 minutes ago, TildeGuy~! said:

Rousey’s first run had her up against the likes of Becky, Sasha and Charlotte now it’s Liv Morgan and Shotzi.

As far as I can tell, she's always seemed happy to be working with whoever, and not just wanting to work with the big names.

But it doesn't help that her performances on screen seem to be going backwards. Her "character" is .. I don't even know, apart from being incredibly awkward. And there's a lot of stuff she simply doesn't do very well in the ring as well.

[westlondonmist]

Wargames matches in the 80s-early 90s were often just used a match for a big house show. They work around what I would call the basic dynamic of wrestling (at the time anyway) with the face in perril, being the underdog with a face cleaning house when it becomes equal in numbers. Great for a show where the bad guys would be guaranteed loud boos and a Road Warrior running in and doing some clotheslines as the 4th man would get huge cheers. In a day when faces and heel boundaries never seem to clear I'm not sure you can really get a classic from this match. 

[DavidB6937]

I love them.

 

 

 

[BomberPat]

1 hour ago, Hannibal Scorch said:

Also, shes on a Roman/Brock deal. So she isn't on TV or on shows weekly. It's why she's been "suspended" at least twice this year.

It's definitely not quite a Brock Lesnar deal, she seems to work TV fairly regularly - a few times a month or so - and does a fair amount of house shows. 

I can't tell if she's mentally clocked out now that she's not the main attraction, or if they've given up on her and she looks shit because they're not putting the effort into meticulously planning out and producing her matches to make sure she looks good, but the most shocking thing about her is that she just doesn't feel special at all any more. She's just not a star, which would have seemed unthinkable once upon a time.

I agree with @westlondonmistthat War Games needs to be built on "babyface in peril", and WWE just don't book that way any more. They never even book their heels to cheat. You can't do a good War Games match with no one building heat, it's impossible. It's a match that's completely at odds with the WWE approach to wrestling.

[Infinity Land]

24 minutes ago, westlondonmist said:

Wargames matches in the 80s-early 90s were often just used a match for a big house show. They work around what I would call the basic dynamic of wrestling (at the time anyway) with the face in perril, being the underdog with a face cleaning house when it becomes equal in numbers. Great for a show where the bad guys would be guaranteed loud boos and a Road Warrior running in and doing some clotheslines as the 4th man would get huge cheers. In a day when faces and heel boundaries never seem to clear I'm not sure you can really get a classic from this match. 

17 Wargames in the '80s. 14 of them involved the Horsemen. That's what shaped the formula and made it work. Once it breaks into the PPV event and thrown together teams to fill the slot it gets watered right down.

To me there needs to be a clear heel group. People that have spent months running their mouths, playing the numbers game to their advantage, cheat to win, run instead of fighting. That way when they're in the cage, finally there's nowhere to run, nowhere to hide.

[BomberPat]

4 minutes ago, Infinity Land said:

To me there needs to be a clear heel group. People that have spent months running their mouths, playing the numbers game to their advantage, cheat to win, run instead of fighting. That way when they're in the cage, finally there's nowhere to run, nowhere to hide.

To be fair, that was the case in both matches on this show - the Bloodline in the men's match, and Damage CTRL in the women's - just WWE don't know how to book heels to be heels any more, or how to book a stipulation match to its strengths. Commentary talked up the advantages that Butch and Bianca Belair had through having experience in War Games matches, and about how Nikki Cross was an agent of chaos who didn't particularly care about her team but was just there to be anarchic and fuck shit up, but none of those factors ever actually played into anything. And they gave the bloody babyface team the coin toss!

[Kamaras-Tash]

2 hours ago, DavidB6937 said:

As far as I can tell, she's always seemed happy to be working with whoever, and not just wanting to work with the big names.

But it doesn't help that her performances on screen seem to be going backwards. Her "character" is .. I don't even know, apart from being incredibly awkward. And there's a lot of stuff she simply doesn't do very well in the ring as well.

 

I think the point he's making is that the likes of Liv, Shotzi etc are fucking shite 

[Nick James]

Remember when people talk about over analysing Bray Wyatt? I think the same can be said for War Games. Both pretty boring outside of the initial intrigue and more gets spoken afterwards about what everything's meant to mean or what it should mean.

Each WWE War Games have been pretty boring outside a few spots. Blood and Guts was pretty boring other until the 5 stand across the ring from the other 5 (same as Survivor Series) and you end up coming out of them each time talking about something that's either gone wrong, or was daft.

Io trying to kill herself, Jericho landing on pillows etc.

[DavidB6937]

28 minutes ago, Kamaras-Tash said:

 

I think the point he's making is that the likes of Liv, Shotzi etc are fucking shite 

Are they though? I think those two both have something worth having them around for. Admittedly Liv shouldn't have been anywhere near the title and Shotzi isn't in a position to be having a title shot but I don't think they're fucking shite. 

[The King Of Swing]

43 minutes ago, Kamaras-Tash said:

 

I think the point he's making is that the likes of Liv, Shotzi etc are fucking shite 

And seemingly without good workers to carry her and/or plan out her matches, so is Ronda. 

[westlondonmist]

1 hour ago, BomberPat said:

To be fair, that was the case in both matches on this show - the Bloodline in the men's match, and Damage CTRL in the women's - just WWE don't know how to book heels to be heels any more, or how to book a stipulation match to its strengths. Commentary talked up the advantages that Butch and Bianca Belair had through having experience in War Games matches, and about how Nikki Cross was an agent of chaos who didn't particularly care about her team but was just there to be anarchic and fuck shit up, but none of those factors ever actually played into anything. And they gave the bloody babyface team the coin toss!

Damage Ctrl is only 3 people though. Previous Wargames were 4vs 4 and DC probably should have added one more to their faction, I get Cross hung around but she is promoted as her own woman not part of a cheating team and Rhipley part of a different cheating team. Did they basically make it 5 vs 5 because the men's was? 

[Supremo]

Before Ronda even started in WWE, I remember there was the opinion that it wasn’t a healthy career choice for her. She’d already proven in MMA that she had the thinnest skin in the world, as well as a real, unhealthy problem with fans booing her and things not going her way.

Far from a Chael Sonnen or a Conor McGregor, who took genuine inspiration from pro-wrestling and knew that fans booing was just as good as cheering for your buy rates and bank balance alike, she seemed completely incapable of grasping the panto element. Come on, Ronda. Have you never seen Wolf on Gladiators? Classic!

And so it was. The moment she wasn’t slaughtering everyone to thunderous cheers in the UFC she completely checked out and refused to do any promotion. Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t her final fight with Amanda Nunes take place without her doing a single interview or public appearance until weigh in?

I remember there was discussion that the same thing would likely happen in WWE if she started getting booed or if things didn’t go her way, and like clockwork that’s exactly what happened. At the start, when everything was going to plan, she was brilliant, having great matches, cutting effective (if weirdly delivered) promos, and came off like a superstar. Then the crowd started to boo her, Becky started making her look like an idiot on Twitter, and it was like a switch went off in her head and everything turned to shit. She started cutting those weird “I’d beat you in a real fight!” shoot interviews online and the Wrestlemania match was rubbish. As more time passes, the more I’m convinced Ronda purposely sabotaged the finish, too. There seems to be real, genuine issues here.

And since she came back it’s just been a continuation of where she left off. This weird sense of being completely checked out and uncomfortable out there, yet still turning up every week to get worse. She was once one of the biggest stars in the company. I’m not sure there’s a single bit of star power left. Becky vs. Ronda was once the dream match of all dream matches. Remember the electricity of that, “I CHOOSE YOU,” promo? Feels like a different dimension, now. I wouldn’t even bother. She’s devolved into nothing. Becky may as well wrestle anyone else.

More fool us for expecting anything else, though. It was obvious where things were heading when she turned up at the Royal Rumble wearing whatever she could find at the local Sports Direct.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Supremo

[air_raid]

All the people saying War Games as a concept is bad, make me very sad indeed. War Games 92 is one of my favourite matches ever and I loved the storylines around the nWo driven ones in 96 and 97. But it’s a match that needs a proper build, heels you’re dying to see killed, and proper selling of no frills violence, not people jumping off platforms.

However, the argument of “it can’t end until everyone is in so it’s pointless and you should just skip to the end” - guessing none of you watch the Royal Rumble start to finish then?

[Jazzy G]

Wargames was originally 5 Vs 5, JJ Dillon would usually be on the Horsemen team, and there'd be a manager (Ellering?) on the face team as well, then they can theoretically take the fall and protect the other members. There were exceptions though, I think Bubba Rogers was in a few as well. They're such good matches when they're done right. As @air_raidpointed out 92 was brilliant, and those nWo ones were good as well because of the build around them and the story that was told. I hear this year's men's match was all about Sami trying to earn the trust of the Bloodline, so can kind of understand the babyfaces getting the advantage to tell that story, but it is against the traditional War Games formula. 

[J. Edwards]

Survivor Series served it’s purpose for HHH to put his mark on the event and was fine in furthering storylines but the actual War Games matches fell short for me as am sure it did for others.

The womens match suffered not just in the match but exposes the shortcomings in the roster as a whole. War Games should be brutal. Rhea was perfect for this match but for some of the others such as Nikki and Alexa I have a hard time believing any of their offence hurts. Under normal circumstances they can get away with it but inside a cage their normal offence just looks flimsy and ineffective and hardly playing up to the brutality of the event. As poor as she is right now, Ronda could have done with being involved as in spite of her lack of ability at least she makes her offence look like its doing some damage. Have the champion on one side and at least their are some stakes involved if Ronda’s team are defeated and 5 women can claim a title shot. There was no reason for this match to happen other than shoehorning a women's war games in there.

 

The mens suffered similar in that there is no reason to watch until all 10 have been released from the cages. However the underlying story of Sami and his loyalties carried this match to a fine ending and one of this years greatest moments. The Bloodline story has really been the best thing in wrestling for awhile. Im eager to see where its going for sure.

I hope HHH reassesses this for next years event. Its all well trying new things but one of the main problems in WWE of recent years is having matches that mean nothing. There are no stakes, no risks, no rewards. Just matches for the sake of having them and everyone goes back into a holding pattern until the next event.

It seems like I'm being overly critical but the event as a whole was ok. An enjoyable few hours with a lovely payoff at the end. One of the better Survivor Series of recent years and it looks like at least HHH is trying ti make the event mean something again.