Scott Hall passes away

[Infinity Land]

As fair as it is to say that they're different disciplines. At any given time it's one person v. another. The successful singles guy should be more dominant.

I think it only really works with a heel tag team that play into the tag team aspect, like FTR nowadays.

When two tag wrestlers are physically equal to the singles guys, like a Road Warriors.

Or are a babyface tag team that takes advantage of heel singles that aren't working together, or can outpace them.

[Carbomb]

39 minutes ago, Infinity Land said:

As fair as it is to say that they're different disciplines. At any given time it's one person v. another. The successful singles guy should be more dominant.

I think it only really works with a heel tag team that play into the tag team aspect, like FTR nowadays.

When two tag wrestlers are physically equal to the singles guys, like a Road Warriors.

Or are a babyface tag team that takes advantage of heel singles that aren't working together, or can outpace them.

No, I don't agree there, sorry. Even with the one-on-one part of it, in kayfabe, the point of having tag skills is that you're able to judge to an absolute fine point when to tag in and tag out so as to maximise any advantage you'd have against a weaker opponent, or minimise/negate any advantage that stronger opponent would have, knowledge that even a top-level main-eventer just wouldn't have, or at least wouldn't have developed as much. A team as dedicated and experienced as the Dudley Boys, the Road Warriors, the Rock N'Rolls/Midnights, etc., or even an experienced single tag competitor like Billy Gunn, would know all this, so it should put them on a par with a main-event single wrestler.

That bit you posted about FTR is primarily what I'm thinking of there.

Not saying that the dedicated tag-team should win every single time, but it should happen with a lot more frequency than it does, and it should get a lot more kayfabe support as to make it more entertaining, in a similar way to how fans of real sports enjoy analysis and commentary. 

Simply put, there's nothing wrong per se with a promoter almost always booking stitched-together main-eventers to go over dedicated teams, but in my opinion they're missing out on a good chunk of storytelling, not to mention really jobbing out their tag division - if the proper team can't beat two singles guys, even great ones, what does it say about them as singles? (Obviously, I mean top-level teams, not midcard or jobber ones.)

EDIT: I think, if I were a booker, I'd structure my tag division thus: tag-champs or "main-event" teams would be booked as the equivalent of main-event singles in the tag division. When it comes to booking thrown-together teams, I'd book them as a level down from their singles status - so two main-event singles in the tag-division would be tag upper-midcarders or "gateway" main-event depending on just how big they were.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Carbomb

[Jazzy G]

5 hours ago, The King of Old School said:

99% of the time though two main event single's guys will beat a regular tag team.

It's weird to me but there we go.

Look at when Batista beat then tag team champions La Resistance in a handicap match then sodomised Sylvain Grenier with the Quebec flag. It's ridiculous. Steve Austin's had multiple WWE tag title reigns as well, usually while teaming with a future PPV opponent in true "can they co-exist?" style. 

Edited March 25, 2022 by jazzygeofferz

[HarmonicGenerator]

2 hours ago, Carbomb said:

 if the proper team can't beat two singles guys, even great ones, what does it say about them as singles? (Obviously, I mean top-level teams, not midcard or jobber ones.)

Depends if you consider any team to be top-level. For a very long time in WWE, being part of a tag team was synonymous with not being able to move above the midcard. People could only become top-level once the team broke up, and the idea of a team being top-level did not compute. Still doesn’t, in fact. 

[air_raid]

Many tag team champions have fallen to guys thrown together who are actually feuding, handicap matches to one main eventer etc. Its always bullshit. The regular tag team should nearly always beat the two singles guys. It’s what they do every night, it isn’t for the singles wrestlers. Maybe Well Dunn beating Bret Hart & Diesel would have looked weird, so you need a creative finish or you don’t fucking book the match to begin with. It can be done right, with the right reasons (common enemies?) and the right finish but it’s far easier to get wrong.

13 hours ago, HarmonicGenerator said:

Depends if you consider any team to be top-level. For a very long time in WWE, being part of a tag team was synonymous with not being able to move above the midcard. People could only become top-level once the team broke up, and the idea of a team being top-level did not compute. Still doesn’t, in fact. 

It’s true. Economics - Vince always hated paying four for an attraction rather than two and that’s even more if you have to pay them “main event” cut of the gate. I believe Legion of Doom were the last tag team to be actively promoted as “the main event” at some live events, which was justified considering how many T-shirts, posters and shoulder pads they sold.

Edited March 26, 2022 by air_raid

[Carbomb]

10 hours ago, air_raid said:

Many tag team champions have fallen to guys thrown together who are actually feuding, handicap matches to one main eventer etc. Its always bullshit. The regular tag team should nearly always beat the two singles guys. It’s what they do every night, it isn’t for the singles wrestlers. Maybe Well Dunn beating Bret Hart & Diesel would have looked weird, so you need a creative finish or you don’t fucking book the match to begin with. It can be done right, with the right reasons (common enemies?) and the right finish but it’s far easier to get wrong.

That's why I laid out that rule of thumb above - obviously not a hard-and-fast rule, but if you book along those lines, then Bret & Diesel would be an upper mid team, whereas Well Dunn were mid-mid to lower-mid, so they would most likely lose to sheer main-event singles power. Against a regular tag-champ/top-level tag team like the Smoking Gunns, however, they'd be more likely to lose.

[Carbomb]

23 hours ago, HarmonicGenerator said:

Depends if you consider any team to be top-level. For a very long time in WWE, being part of a tag team was synonymous with not being able to move above the midcard. People could only become top-level once the team broke up, and the idea of a team being top-level did not compute. Still doesn’t, in fact. 

Sorry for double post, but mobile doesn't seem to allow for edits-in.

You're right that that's how things are, but that's my point: personally, I'd prefer it not to be like that, it's not as fun.

 

This thread's moved like a real-life conversation! We've gone from Ramon in the Sports Centre to Sports Centre-format to tag-team booking nuances.

[Infinity Land]

14 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

That's why I laid out that rule of thumb above - obviously not a hard-and-fast rule, but if you book along those lines, then Bret & Diesel would be an upper mid team, whereas Well Dunn were mid-mid to lower-mid, so they would most likely lose to sheer main-event singles power. Against a regular tag-champ/top-level tag team like the Smoking Gunns, however, they'd be more likely to lose.

I would take Bret and Diesel over a random mid card team.

It's not like either guy would have forgotten all their tag team experience just because it was with different partners. It's really only the "partners that can't co-exist" angle that would cause an upset or going against one of the top tag teams in the company where they should be losing.

 

[Carbomb]

3 minutes ago, Infinity Land said:

I would take Bret and Diesel over a random mid card team.

It's not like either guy would have forgotten all their tag team experience just because it was with different partners. It's really only the "partners that can't co-exist" angle that would cause an upset or going against one of the top tag teams in the company where they should be losing.

 

The first bit, to be clear, I was saying that Well Dunn would lose to them.

The second bit, I'd say yeh, but that would be more down to Bret being an experienced tag wrestler whilst Diesel was, kayfabe, not. And sure - they don't forget all their experience in the tag division, but a dedicated team is exactly that, and that should be reflected in the booking - their experience and skill is "fresher in the mind". Incidentally, that applies to real life as well as kayfabe - teams that regularly work together and travel together visibly look better synchronised and polished in their matches.

[Devon Malcolm]

You can't apply the logic of doubles tennis to wrestling. It's wrestling. La Resistance were nobodies and shit and nobody cared about them except American flag nonces. Of course Batista should be beating them. He's Batista!

[Infinity Land]

2 hours ago, Carbomb said:

The first bit, to be clear, I was saying that Well Dunn would lose to them.

The second bit, I'd say yeh, but that would be more down to Bret being an experienced tag wrestler whilst Diesel was, kayfabe, not. And sure - they don't forget all their experience in the tag division, but a dedicated team is exactly that, and that should be reflected in the booking - their experience and skill is "fresher in the mind". Incidentally, that applies to real life as well as kayfabe - teams that regularly work together and travel together visibly look better synchronised and polished in their matches.

Most team sports, the two or more people are covering specific tasks. Doubles tennis gets a mention above. If a singles tennis player went up against any professional standard doubles teams they would be doomed. They could never cover the court in the same.

Tag team wrestling is 1v.1 for the majority of the time. Strategy wise all a dominant singles wrestler has to do is stay out of the opponent's corner and prevent them from tagging out.

[Carbomb]

4 hours ago, Devon Malcolm said:

You can't apply the logic of doubles tennis to wrestling. It's wrestling. La Resistance were nobodies and shit and nobody cared about them except American flag nonces. Of course Batista should be beating them. He's Batista!

Yeh, but would Batista and, say, Triple H beat a prime LOD, Demolition, the New Age Outlaws, or the Dudleys at their height? I'm saying the logic of doubles should apply, give or take a bit of latitude so as to exclude the shite. It's wrestling; a booker can do anything.

3 hours ago, Infinity Land said:

Most team sports, the two or more people are covering specific tasks. Doubles tennis gets a mention above. If a singles tennis player went up against any professional standard doubles teams they would be doomed. They could never cover the court in the same.

Tag team wrestling is 1v.1 for the majority of the time. Strategy wise all a dominant singles wrestler has to do is stay out of the opponent's corner and prevent them from tagging out.

Again, you're talking about it as is. I'm saying I'd like to see it booked as though tag wrestling was a different discipline - kayfabe allows it to be portrayed differently. It's just more interesting that way, as it makes for a different storyline landscape. 

Also, "all a dominant singles wrestler has to do..." I'm saying that something that commentators could push is that experienced tag wrestlers know how to stop their opponents from staying out of their opponents' corner, and avoid being prevented from tagging out. It's something we see in matches anyway, so make it part of the narrative.

[wandshogun09]

[air_raid]

10 hours ago, Infinity Land said:

Tag team wrestling is 1v.1 for the majority of the time. Strategy wise all a dominant singles wrestler has to do is stay out of the opponent's corner and prevent them from tagging out.

Are you for real? Tag team wrestling is all about strategy and pacing. When to tag in and out. Keeping yourself fresh enough but tagging often enough so your partner keeps the heat on. Making sure you’re not both close to the empty mark if a hot tag happens because one fresh guy might do OK against two walking dead. Working out your double teams and how to maximise the referees 5 count. Scouting the other teams double team moves and if there’s any defence. Deciding which of your opponents is your first choice to “cut the ring off” but have a strategy in mind if an opportunity presents on the other. Never mind the intricacies of considering four peoples strengths and weaknesses in the match rather than two. Do you think Demolition were WWF tag team champions for 15 months because they were two blokes both reasonably good at what’s basically 1 on 1 for most of time and just trying to stay out of the other teams corner, or was it because they knew to plan differently for the Powers of Pain who were burly enough to throw them around and tough enough to stand there and fight them, to the Rockers who were faster, more agile and hard to get hands on, to the Hart Foundation who as “a Porsche and a tank” gave them a bit of both plus Bret wrestling them and working a body part? Do I give any credit that on a certain night if Randy Savage and Ultimate Warrior decided “fuck it, we can beat these” they’d have a chance of beating the real team or if by hook or crook Ax and Smash would have still found a way to leave with belts? Better say your act of contrition.

Thats the logic, anyway.

4 hours ago, wandshogun09 said:

Conrad asked on their STW about Razor why he was never considered for the tag belts which at first I dismissed as as a stupid question considering he was perennial Intercontinental champ and the only way he should have moved was up to WWF title stature, not sideways. He had title shots with three different partners in 1995, everyone’s favourite Savio Vega, with Bam Bam on Tv dark matches that didn’t make it to Coliseum, and with Kid on TV and on PPV. Timing wasn’t right, clearly, but I suppose there might have been mileage in putting a heel tag champs on the map by putting the pin on “the Bad Guy” rather than his partner.

Conversely, the Outsiders did wonders for the “tag title as main event” proposition in WCW as they were two guys who believably passed for main event, but also were a genuine tag team wrestling as a tag team every night. Their defences with Luger/Giant and the Steiners were given top billing on TV and on the road, they were the focal point of two PPVs with their rivalry with Flair and Piper, and their reunion defence (and subsequent split) was the main event of another. OK, much of this happened in lieu of an absentee World Champion (brother) but still, with Scott and Kev, WCW could never be afraid of putting the tag belts on last.

[wandshogun09]

I loved the Razor/Kid team and it’s weird but in my head I always remembered (wrongly) them holding the belts at some point. I guess because they were in and around the title picture towards the end of 95 and mixing with the Gunns and Yoko/Owen etc. But looking back they didn’t really have a long consistent run as a team, did they? We got a bit of it in 94, that amazing match with Shawn/Diesel comes to mind, but after that they were preoccupied with other stuff. Razor spent most of 95 going for the IC gold against Jarrett, Shawn and Douglas. And when he wasn’t tied up with that he was teaming with Savio and Kid was with old Sparky Plug. For some reason I always think of Razor and Kid as having a proper run as a team but looking back it was really on and off. Thinking about it, they probably only teamed them up in late 95 because they were starting Kid’s heel turn.

They were great together though. They obviously had great natural chemistry being mates, the big man/little man dynamic worked really well, the storyline history between them added to the story of them teaming and I loved that move they’d do when Razor would actually perform the ‘Sack of Shit’ to Kid, throwing him onto their opponents. They looked the bollocks whenever they matched their gear up as well;

Imagine a babyface match of Razor/Kid vs Bret/Owen in early 94? Or even the Steiners. 

Edited March 27, 2022 by wandshogun09